Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Ask Judea Torah Show 2
q_q_:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on February 05, 2008, 07:41:56 PM ---1. Proof that the Rambam talks about appointing a regular non Messianic King in our time: The Laws of Monarchy and Wars Chapter 11:8-9 is definite proof. http://forum.kahane.org/index.php/topic,1892.msg8288.html#msg8288
2. When the Rambam talks about a King and Milchemet Mitzvah, that is completely different than a Milchemet Rishoot. The Rambam's remarks in Hilchot Shabbat about Milchemet Rishoot say nothing about a King at all or the Moshiach. It simply says if the Jews decide to make a Milchemet Rishoot and/or besiege a city for this purpose they can fight on Shabbat but should not start the besieging of the city more less than 2 days before Shabbat. He says nothing about Moshiach or a King but so he clearly is talking about our time period.
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I cannot comment on hilchot shabbat. But hilchot melachim, is still only talking about a King.
I notice whenyou say 11:8-9, you are referring to verses. When I had written ch x:y I meant chapter x, halacha y. But anyhow
It says he is a King.. fights the wars of G-d, compels israel to follow the torah, and should be presumed to be the moshiach (even though he may not be).
**We cannot have a King in our times.** We need a prophet for it, as he says earlier.
does compelling israel to keep the torah, mean forcing the whole of israel to keep the torah? Nobody is doing that.
And he says that person is presumed to be moshiach.
I guess MAYBE , MAYBE, it proves that RAMBAM thinks you can have a non messianic king(it seems to me that he is just talking about a King who one expects to the the messiah, and is only non messianic because it turns out he is not! ). But it does not prove that you can have it in our time. We need a prophet to appoint a King.
Maybe hilchot shabbat proves what you say it does. I do not have it to comment.
jdl4ever:
According to the Rambam, he does not say we can not have Prophesy in our time as other commentators do. But I will move on to another proof. What about the commandment "to not let idolatrers live in the land of Israel", that seems pretty clear cut that we must settle the land of Israel first to enforce this? Or what about the commandment that "levites shall not share in the spoil of the conquest of the land", this has the prerequisite that the Jews are conquering the Land of Israel. For them to do this they must first control a portion of the land. And if you answer that this only is supposed to happen in Massianic times, in Hilchot Melachim the Rambam doesn't write about the Jews going up to Israel from Galut with their appointed King and taking it over, he talks about the Jews already living in Israel appointing a King.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on February 05, 2008, 09:57:56 PM ---According to the Rambam, he does not say we can not have Prophesy in our time as other commentators do. But I will move on to another proof. What about the commandment "to not let idolatrers live in the land of Israel", that seems pretty clear cut that we must settle the land of Israel first to enforce this? Or what about the commandment that "levites shall not share in the spoil of the conquest of the land", this has the prerequisite that the Jews are conquering the Land of Israel. For them to do this they must first control a portion of the land. And if you answer that this only is supposed to happen in Massianic times, in Hilchot Melachim the Rambam doesn't write about the Jews going up to Israel from Galut with their appointed King and taking it over, he talks about the Jews already living in Israel appointing a King.
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You are wrong about the RAMBAM. He does say prophecy ceased.
And I think it is possible to live in israel without soveregnty, to appoint a King, and then fight, conquer.
Aside from that the rest of my answer is not that clear.. I won`t post it here because it brings up questions to the point that judeaoncapita`s thread would be well and truly hijacked. And judeaoncapita needs this post to see what questions are asked..
I will create a new thread and reference it here, but excuse my starting post - response to you, the ideas I will mention in that post are very undeveloped. In that I ran into a problem in the way the RAMBAM is defining King.
hopefully , for the sake of judeanoncapta, the thread can get back to questions for his show!
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=16162.0
Dexter:
My last question for this show, Judea:
Haredi Jews are mostly against having pets as Cats and Dogs, I don't know if it's the same in the National-Religiouse Jews aswell, but I would like to ask what's the reason for that, if you know what's the answere ?
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