Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.

[Lubab]

I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim was asked about suicide and he said that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.

I was horrified by this and am registering my public disagreement here. As much as I love you Chaim, I must represent today that this does not represent the Torah view.

Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.

I was very surprised by Chaim's answer and I hope he will correct the record ASAP and if I am wrong I would like to hear why and I will reconsider, but I am quite certain that I am not wrong here and I want to defend what I believe to be the Torah position on the topic.

Thank you.

And i don't mean any disrespect whatsoever to the Chaim, the great Jewish hero, whom I love like a brother.

Lubab

New Edit: P.S. As I explain later in this thread I am NOT referring to the debate about whether you can "pull the plug"...the question was about suicide, which means doing something proactive to directly end the life by either the patient or the doctor or someone else.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I was sort of thinking the same way, (except for the revealing of secrets which does sound somewhat right, allthought I dont know). Lubab I want to ask you- is it concidered suicide if one prays or while praying asks or thinks of G-d killing him/her? Or someone saying something like "please G-d take me from this low world, and bring me closer to you in the higher spiriutal worlds" etc.

[jdl4ever]

My father asked a trusted Rabbi about DNR and he said that according to the Torah it is permitted if the person has less than a year to live since he is permitted to refuse medical treatment in such a case.  I myself am ignorant in this subject.  Suicide is forbidden of course. 

[Sarah]

Euthanasia, or so called "mercy killing" is another form of murder if it is non-voluntary, especially when the patient is in a coma or something. If it is voluntary it is like suicide because you never know even the slightest possibility could arise for a miraculous cure or recovary. If God hasn't let the time for the person to die, come even though they are terminally ill then why should they take their own life.

However if a person is nearly brain dead but being kept alive artificially by a life-support machine, then I think there is some controversy.

[DownwithIslam]

I totally agree with Chaim on this. He wasn't saying that euthanasia was justified, he was saying that if their is absolutely no chance the person would survive, why should the person have to be tortured further? He wasn't saying that people could just kill themselves left and right.

[Dexter]

Because it's not allowed to suicide acorrding to Judaism.

[TorahZionist]

http://www.medethics.org.il/articles/JME/JMEM10/JMEM.10.5.asp

...

Quality and Sanctity of Life

Rabbi Feinstein explicitly endorses the concept of the sanctity of life by stating “it is, or should be, absolutely clear, without any doubt, to anyone who has studied our holy Torah and who fears God, that one must heal or save every individual without any differentiation based upon his intelligence or physical stamina,”[12] but in other contexts he relates to the concept of quality of life. In answer to a question of whether there are patients who should not be treated? He responds “this question obviously refers to a terminally ill patient who can live for only several weeks or months at most. Such patients often should not be treated. The key concern is their quality of life.”[13] Given the value of life in Rabbi Feinstein’s thinking, we must understand why in this situation quality of life, particularly the burden of pain, becomes the deciding factor. Based on the above-mentioned duty principle, we think Rabbi Feinstein himself provides the answer. “It may very well be that there is no biblical obligation to cure such a patient, or rather attempt to prolong his life. The commandment “And he may heal” may not apply to a [physican treating a] patient for whom there is no potential for healing.”[14] Quality of life becomes a dominant factor when there is no hope to cure the patient and hence no normative obligation. Rabbi Feinstein is also very concerned about the quality of life of a dying patient in concert with the modern hospice movement, and rules that regarding a dying patient “it is certainly forbidden to cause any unnecessary pain to the patient. If no medical care is indicated, there is no rational reason why routine blood chemistry should be done on the patient…..Only that which is clearly for the patient’s benefit should be done….. The imminence of death does not relieve the physician from the obligation to do everything for the comfort of the patient.”[15] It is clear to Rabbi Feinstein that for the duty-bound physician other normative obligations such as “Love your neighbor as yourself” certainly apply to dying patients, and there is still much a doctor can do for these patients, such as relieving suffering. However, he fervently opposes any form of active euthanasia.[16]

...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.

[kellymaureen]

I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.

You are right!
I watched cancer eat through my aunt to the point that her bones would shatter each time they tried to move her.  She was kept doped to the eyeballs but still would scream out in agony once in a while.  Sometimes death is better than life. 

[Sarah]

I totally agree with Chaim on this. He wasn't saying that euthanasia was justified, he was saying that if their is absolutely no chance the person would survive, why should the person have to be tortured further? He wasn't saying that people could just kill themselves left and right.

Who certifies that there is absolutely no chance of survival?

I read a story somewhere about a woman with terminal cancer, who was admitted Euthanasia because she was affirmed that she only had 2 months to live and was in constant agony. It was later discovered that she was actually in remission.

[Ultra Requete]

How un perfect man can judge when his hour come? That's thing only G-d Know. Suicide or so called euthnasia shud never be publicly excused or justified.   

[Dr. Dan]

It should be a case by case situation with the preferred decision to choose life over death.

The examples are way too many to mention when death is more acceptable over life in this situation. All I can say is that the overwhelming majority of the time, life is the best choice.  But I will refrain from saying that it is the best choice 100% of the time. I don't think it is. However, it is really close to a 100% of the time.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think Chaim may be right if there is ZERO chance of recovery and they are suffering badly.  You can put on a timer on the machine or something so you are not technically doing it yourself.  But I don't remember exactly.  I'm pretty sure at the point where a person's recovery to consciousness is 100% impossible without a doubt they are considered already halachically dead, aren't they?

[Salty German]

I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.

Yes, it's fascinating to see young people in the peak of their health pontificating on whether seriously ill, desperately suffering people have the right to choose to end their pain or not.   

Quite frankly I think it's frightening that some people think that God might send down a 'miraculous cure'.  The Orthodox Jews have the right to impose whatever they want on their own community, but the great masses of the gentiles should not be beholden to heavenly precepts which are of no concern to them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.

Yes, it's fascinating to see young people in the peak of their health pontificating on whether seriously ill, desperately suffering people have the right to choose to end their pain or not.   

Quite frankly I think it's frightening that some people think that G-d might send down a 'miraculous cure'.  The Orthodox Jews have the right to impose whatever they want on their own community, but the great masses of the gentiles should not be beholden to heavenly precepts which are of no concern to them.

Why would the gentiles be forced to do anything?  We are talking about Jewish law here regarding Jews.  I don't know how this comment is relevant.

[Sarah]

I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.

Yes, it's fascinating to see young people in the peak of their health pontificating on whether seriously ill, desperately suffering people have the right to choose to end their pain or not.   

Quite frankly I think it's frightening that some people think that G-d might send down a 'miraculous cure'.  The Orthodox Jews have the right to impose whatever they want on their own community, but the great masses of the gentiles should not be beholden to heavenly precepts which are of no concern to them.

Sanctity of life appears in more religions as a moral issue, then just Judaism. Jews have the right to do what they want according to their own laws, I just gave my point of view and didn't intend to dictate any rules or anything.
And you know what, the "great masses" of gentiles and other people apart from Jews are the majority that are faced with the problem of Euthanasia, so they can be just as morally concerned. You're not the only one who believes in G-d's job of taking and granting life.

Are you Jewish Salty German?

[MasterWolf1]

If I had a serious disease and no form of cure and end up laying in a hospital bed the rest of my life which really isn't living. With tubes controling me and I need someone else to feed and change me, and someone to clean me up cause I wouldnt be able to use the bathroom on my own, at that point pull the plug.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.

Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.

Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.

Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.

The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.

You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.

I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.

We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.

And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.

Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.

And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.

[Sarah]

With every suffering comes a relief.

[MasterWolf1]

IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

[Sarah]

IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

Why would God keep them still alive suffering? If they should have died then why didn't it happen in the car crash?

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

Why would G-d keep them still alive suffering? If they should have died then why didn't it happen in the car crash?

Its not a matter of G-d making people suffer, its about the will of the person concerned. Even in that act, people have a choice.

I have seen and have a man currently who should of died 5 years ago still alive, because he said " he is not  really yet"

Think people underestimate the spirit and will of man, G-d made us a strong and willful creation, he does not send us anything we are not fit to bear.

[MasterWolf1]

IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?

I know it becomes a very difficult yet morbid decision.  And I mean those that are forever suffering to stay alive.  Terminally ill for example that no matter what. For example: If someone has cancer that can never be cured and slowly eating away at them and comes to a point that they have nothing but suffering just to continue to live, I really don't see that as living.

[Sarah]

he does not send us anything we are not fit to bear.

[/b]

So we can live with the suffering then?

Isn't there some bias in actually asking the person whom it concerns whether or not they would wish to die through a "mercy killing"....when they themselves are either in some degree of pain or feeling completely useless knowing that their time may come quite soon?

They would want to die peacefully and dignified instead of prolonging their state. Though their want can be overshadowed by the slightest chance. If people start to allow Euthanasia by the law, it's boundries will begin to expand just as with abortion.