Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.

[Lubab]

I think when it comes to the topic of euthanasia, we need to differentiate between "passive" and "active" euthanasia. Passive euthanasia would be something like cutting off someone's feeding tube. I'm not sure a DNR would be considered any time of euthanasia, but I suppose that could also fall under the confines of passive euthanasia. Active euthanasia would be the act of active killing, sort of like what Dr. Kevorkian does. I don't remember exactly what Chaim said and in what context he said it. But I would be surprised that Chaim would be in favor of this since he was very much outspoken against the Terri Shaivo case which was an example of passive euthanasia. Perhaps Chaim was referring to evil people who deserve to die and that they should all save us the suffering by just killing themselves. I don't know 

Cutting off a feeding tube is starving someone to death and is murder. It took her more than a week to die from it. But cutting artificial life support is different because the person dies right away because it is only keeping them alive artificially. Someone with a feeding tube is alive on their own but they need to eat to stay alive just like a healthy person, they just need help eating so they need the tube since they can't eat on their own.

Is this correct Lubab?

There are different opinions about this. It's not so simple. I'm not an expert in those issues.

[Dr. Dan]

I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.

Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.

Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.

Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.

The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.

You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.

I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.

We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.

And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.

Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.

And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.

With this post you reminded me of the time we had to "sacrifice" our lab rats and lab mice after we were done with our experimentation.  Killing mammals emotionally, is hard to do... I can't imagine what euthenasia woudl feel like. All know it woudl be such a horrible feeling to be the one invovled in making that decision or even doing it.

[OdKahaneChai]

I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.

Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.

Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.

Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.

The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.

You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.

I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.

We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.

And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.

Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.

And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.

With this post you reminded me of the time we had to "sacrifice" our lab rats and lab mice after we were done with our experimentation.  Killing mammals emotionally, is hard to do... I can't imagine what euthenasia woudl feel like. All know it woudl be such a horrible feeling to be the one invovled in making that decision or even doing it.

Don't equate animals with humans...

[Dr. Dan]

Lubab is right, the Halacha is Halacha. And suffering cant be an excuse (G-d save us from these things). If the Halacha says that the patient cant be killed (murdered) then its forbidden even if they are in pain. And if this comes up, then it was decreed by G-d to happen this way (may G-d save us from such things).

the only thing that i have ever learned in regards to this is that it is NOT permitted to end someone's life. However, to withdraw the medicine in permitted in certain cases. And to relieve pain obviously.

[Dr. Dan]

I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.

Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.

Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.

Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.

The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.

You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.

I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.

We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.

And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.

Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.

And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.

With this post you reminded me of the time we had to "sacrifice" our lab rats and lab mice after we were done with our experimentation.  Killing mammals emotionally, is hard to do... I can't imagine what euthenasia woudl feel like. All know it woudl be such a horrible feeling to be the one invovled in making that decision or even doing it.

Don't equate animals with humans...

oh no! I don't mean to.  What i'm saying is when i had to sacrifice the lab mice and lab rats, it was hard....I cannot even fathom what it woudl feel like if it were an actual human being!

[Lubab]

I find this whole conversation very interesting. I always hear atheists tell me "if the only reason you don't murder is because it says in the Bible, then you are a sick person".

Well it turns out many people still don't have it straight and we would all be a lot better off if people just followed what it says in the Bible.

I didn't realize Skippy, that you had actually done this many times.

Did you actively cause the death or just pull the plug and the death happened on its own? There's a big difference.

[Lubab]

I was sort of thinking the same way, (except for the revealing of secrets which does sound somewhat right, allthought I dont know). Lubab I want to ask you- is it concidered suicide if one prays or while praying asks or thinks of G-d killing him/her? Or someone saying something like "please G-d take me from this low world, and bring me closer to you in the higher spiriutal worlds" etc.

Every time we say Shma we are supposed to imagine ourselves willing to sacrifice our lives for G-d. Is that what you mean? That's a mitzvah, not suicide. But I'm not sure I understand the question.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

How can you talk about a moment of human life in terms of dollars and cents? All the money in the world is not worth one moment of human life. I think what you just said was immoral and repugnant and it's against what the Bible says. You must preserve life at all costs, including your own life. It's not yours to mess with. It's on loan from G-d. He gives it and takes it when He wants to.

How is it Biblical to spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars on expensive heart/lung machines, last-ditch desperation surgeries, experimental superdrugs (that at most slow down the cancer by two or three weeks), etc. on patients in the same category as Ariel Sharon (ys"vz)? It is because of Western society's absurd arrogance and insistence of these enormously futile end-of-life treatments that healthcare insurance is so abominably expensive for all of us.

Please show me how G-d demands that societies spend tens of billons of dollars keeping the likes of Sharon alive that could have been used in providing basic coverage--or even fancy, lifesaving treatments--for people who could actually use them.

Please show me how insistence upon another two or three weeks of torturous, miserable, and quite likely unconscious "life" is preferable to a natural death.

[Lubab]

How can you talk about a moment of human life in terms of dollars and cents? All the money in the world is not worth one moment of human life. I think what you just said was immoral and repugnant and it's against what the Bible says. You must preserve life at all costs, including your own life. It's not yours to mess with. It's on loan from G-d. He gives it and takes it when He wants to.

How is it Biblical to spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars on expensive heart/lung machines, last-ditch desperation surgeries, experimental superdrugs (that at most slow down the cancer by two or three weeks), etc. on patients in the same category as Ariel Sharon (ys"vz)? It is because of Western society's absurd arrogance and insistence of these enormously futile end-of-life treatments that healthcare insurance is so abominably expensive for all of us.

Please show me how G-d demands that societies spend tens of billons of dollars keeping the likes of Sharon alive that could have been used in providing basic coverage--or even fancy, lifesaving treatments--for people who could actually use them.

Please show me how insistence upon another two or three weeks of torturous, miserable, and quite likely unconscious "life" is preferable to a natural death.

You are now mixing in a few different issues by throwing Sharon into the equation. I don't think that's a good idea in a discussion like this. We want to stay on point talking about a regular person and whether it's worth spending a boat-load of money to preserve their life, old and sick though they may be.

You want scriptural support for this, right?

Coming up...give me a day to research and I'll be back with sources G-d willing.

[newman]

I have to agree with Chaim, too.

Nobody has the right to tell another person who is suffering hideously (with no chance of a cure) to "grin and bear it for G-d's glory".

I'm not proposing anybody be bumped off against their will. But when a lucid patient requests the means to terminate their suffering I think it is their inalienable right.

Same for those who make living wills requesting death in the event of them becoming 'vegetables'. I also know soldiers who have made pacts with their comrades that in the event they are hopelessly maimed (blinded AND crippled etc) that their comrades finish them in the field. This is not uncommon.

[Lubab]

I have to agree with Chaim, too.

Nobody has the right to tell another person who is suffering hideously (with no chance of a cure) to "grin and bear it for G-d's glory".

I'm not proposing anybody be bumped off against their will. But when a lucid patient requests the means to terminate their suffering I think it is their inalienable right.

Same for those who make living wills requesting death in the event of them becoming 'vegetables'. I also know soldiers who have made pacts with their comrades that in the event they are hopelessly maimed (blinded AND crippled etc) that their comrades finish them in the field. This is not uncommon.

Blaspheme.

I'll bet you even Chaim doesn't agree with this. I think we just have a misunderstanding here.

[Lubab]

In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?

[newman]

In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?

I don't..........provided his services are ONLY utilised by sane, rational, lucid patients and not the delerious or unconscious or greedy relatives wishing to give grandpa a shove into the next world to get his estate.

[Lubab]

In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?

I don't..........provided his services are ONLY utilised by sane, rational, lucid patients and not the delerious or unconscious or greedy relatives wishing to give grandpa a shove into the next world to get his estate.

Well that my friend is murder/suicide in the eyes of the Torah. Please do not go around saying this stuff and calling yourself a Noahide because it's a big violation of the Noahide laws to do this kind of thing. You guys only have seven laws. Don't screw this one up.

Why does everyone always say "who am I to tell someone they can't do this?". It's not about who we are. It's about what G-d says is right.

If I was making this stuff up I'd agree with you. Who am I to tell anyone what to do? But since I'm just repeating what G-d says in the Torah I can tell pretty much anyone what they should do. They might not want to listen, but I can tell them.

[Lubab]

This whole conversation has been so enlightening. It shows clearly how good and smart people can become completely immoral when they abandon the Torah view and rely only on their own understanding and emotion.

[Sergio 11]

I think Chaim has point to prove when it comes to the topic of terminally ill individuals been given a painless way out...

But i have to agree with Lubab on this one, every second of life is valuable and people shouldn't just quit on it even if everything seems useless...

and Lubab is also correct about suicide going against the Torah ...

Lubab you are a courageous and brave man to challenge Chaim when it comes to the torah and you are 100% right on this.

[newman]

In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?

I don't..........provided his services are ONLY utilised by sane, rational, lucid patients and not the delerious or unconscious or greedy relatives wishing to give grandpa a shove into the next world to get his estate.

Well that my friend is murder/suicide in the eyes of the Torah. Please do not go around saying this stuff and calling yourself a Noahide because it's a big violation of the Noahide laws to do this kind of thing. You guys only have seven laws. Don't screw this one up.

Why does everyone always say "who am I to tell someone they can't do this?". It's not about who we are. It's about what G-d says is right.

If I was making this stuff up I'd agree with you. Who am I to tell anyone what to do? But since I'm just repeating what G-d says in the Torah I can tell pretty much anyone what they should do. They might not want to listen, but I can tell them.

I cannot believe that the G-d of Abraham Issaac and Jacob 'requires' a terminally ill cancer patient to lay in agony and scream until they pass out day after day after day. That sounds like something the demon 'allah' of the muSSlims would require..........not the G-d of Israel.

Anyone who could sit idle while a loved one endures such torment is inhuman.

And before you mention pain relief just remember it only works up to a point. You can't anesthetise bone AT ALL.

[Lubab]

In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?

I don't..........provided his services are ONLY utilised by sane, rational, lucid patients and not the delerious or unconscious or greedy relatives wishing to give grandpa a shove into the next world to get his estate.

Well that my friend is murder/suicide in the eyes of the Torah. Please do not go around saying this stuff and calling yourself a Noahide because it's a big violation of the Noahide laws to do this kind of thing. You guys only have seven laws. Don't screw this one up.

Why does everyone always say "who am I to tell someone they can't do this?". It's not about who we are. It's about what G-d says is right.

If I was making this stuff up I'd agree with you. Who am I to tell anyone what to do? But since I'm just repeating what G-d says in the Torah I can tell pretty much anyone what they should do. They might not want to listen, but I can tell them.

I cannot believe that the G-d of Abraham Issaac and Jacob 'requires' a terminally ill cancer patient to lay in agony and scream until they pass out day after day after day. That sounds like something the demon 'allah' of the muSSlims would require..........not the G-d of Israel.

Anyone who could sit idle while a loved one endures such torment is inhuman.

And before you mention pain relief just remember it only works up to a point. You can't anesthetise bone AT ALL.

When the pain reaches a certain point the soul will actually leave and that will cause the death. If they are not at that point G-d commands them to keep fighting to stay in this world.

But Newman, I just want to understand: are you trying to figure this our with your own brain? Or are you trying to look into the books and see what G-d really wants?

There is a huge distinction there, and if your whole religion is based on what you find acceptable in your own mind, then you are not worshiping G-d, but yourself. I don't know what that is, but it's not Judiasm.

If G-d actually said to do everything the Koran says, we would all have to do it.

It's nice to explain the commandments according to our understanding, but that is only the second stage. The first stage is to ACCEPT G-d's kingdom over us...then later...maybe you can understand it too.

That's why the Jews were rewarded for saying "We will do" before they said "we will hear".

[Lubab]

I also find it very strange what people say.

Nobody here yet has taken issue with the fact that G-d gives people terminal diseases in the first place. This we just accept.
But G-d telling them to actually suffer longer with the disease!!!??? Now that's just cruel!

So twisted. The same G-d that gave them the disease in the first place is the same one telling them to fight for their life.

Why is one harder to understand than the other? They should be equally troubling.

[newman]

If a Jew or noachide is chased onto a prison roof by a prison gang and faces certain sodomy, he must choose death over sexual imorallity (as is the case for idolatry or murder) and jump off the roof.

How can it be OK to commit suicide over sodomy (that one will recover from) and not hideous, screaming, endless agony?

[Lubab]

If a Jew or noachide is chased onto a prison roof by a prison gang and faces certain sodomy, he must choose death over sexual imorallity (as is the case for idolatry or murder) and jump off the roof.

How can it be OK to commit suicide over sodomy (that one will recover from) and not hideous, screaming, endless agony?

Because that's what the Torah says. What do you want from me? Go ask G-d! First accept it and when you do come back to me and we'll try to understand.

[Lubab]

I find it interesting that you (newman) said the "G-d of Abraham Issac and Jacob" would never command such suffering etc.

You do realize that it was the G-d of Abraham who asked him to sacrifice is only son, right?

G-d's trying to teach you a lesson.

Stop trying to understand him and just do what He says even if it doesn't make sense to you, or else you're just worshiping your own brain...not G-d.

Abraham got up early to do this thing which to our brains would seem completely immoral and was rewarded with being the father or all nations for what he did.

The people on this forum could take a tip from ole' Abe.

[newman]

I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.

I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.

Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.

If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.

[Masha]

I would be afraid of coercion by family members of a terminally ill or elderly patient.

Me too. This is why I am against legalizing euthanasia.

The best way to die is on a field of battle, IMHO.

[Dexter]

Satan ? There's no Satan in Judaism ?