Edited Title: Chaim and I agree on this ... as per this weeks Ask JTF.

[Lubab]

Wow, to say that this has ignited into a severely heated debate would be an understatement at this point! It appears that opinions vary and we're certainly not all on the same page regarding the incredibly controversial issue. That said, I still maintain my original position that if it wasn't for our trusty leader Chaim that we'd all probably be DEAD-- If it wasn't for Chaim's selfless and relentless efforts to PROTECT US from our DANGEROUS ENEMIES and his steadfast dedication to spreading the truth and making it known to our military leaders that our enemies are indeed putting us in grave danger, it's not much of a stretch to assume we'd all have been killed by now... When our great Chaim expresses his sacred opinions on TV he ALWAYS stands on the side of what is CORRECT and RIGHTEOUS!

Listen to the last question on this week's AskJTF. Me and Chaim agree on this. There's no debate here as far as the Torah position on the "proactive act" scenario.

[abdithefaithful]

will do...

[Dr. Dan]

I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.

I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.

Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.

If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.

Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.

An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.

That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.

Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.

There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.

I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted.  The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?

Anything less than that is suicide/murder.

But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.

THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?

We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.

What are the rabbis' explanations in regards to euthanasia.  How is it that these three things take presidence over someone's terminal physical suffering?

These things are worse than physical suffering.

This shouldn't come as a shock to you. Emotional and spiritual pain can often be much greater than even the worst physical pain.

But it's more than that. Doing one of these three things causes great destruction the fabric of the world, on things outside of ourselves, the kind of damage we have no right to cause. For instance we have no right to choose that our life is more important than someone else's that's why we get killed rather than murder someone.

When are we permitted to kill?

[Dr. Dan]

For C.F.

The Talmudic and scriptural support for what I am saying:


Probably the earliest story regardomg  euthanasia is found in the Talmud (Avoda Zara 18). One of the ten martyrs, Rabbi Hanina ben Teradyon, was burnt at the stake holding a Torah scroll. His students stood around and said to him, “Rebbe, open your mouth. Let the flames and smoke enter your body and choke you so that you will die quicker and not suffer this terrible torture.”

He said, “No. G-d gave me my soul. Only He should retrieve it from me.”


The Talmud states as follows: "One who is in a dying condition (goses) is regarded as a living person in all respects (didn't find source yet)." This rule is reiterated by the codifiers of Jewish law including, Maimonides and Karo. The Talmud continues:

"One may not bind his jaws, nor stop up his openings, nor place a metallic vessel or any cooling object on his navel until such time that he dies, as it is written: Before the silver cord is snapped asunder (Ecclesiastes 12:6). One may not move him, nor may one place him on sand or on salt until he dies. One may not close the eyes of the dying person. He who touches them or moves them is shedding blood because Rabbi Meir used to say: This can be compared to a flickering flame. As soon as a person touches it, it becomes extinguished. So too, whosoever closes the eyes of the dying is considered to have taken his soul (didn't find source yet...)."


Other laws pertaining to a goses, or dying person, such as the preparation of a coffin, inheritance, marriage, and so forth, are then cited.

The Talmud also mentions: "He who closes the eyes of a dying person while the soul is departing is a murderer [lit. he sheds blood]. This may be compared to a lamp that is going out. If a man places his finger upon it, it is immediately extinguished (Shabbat 151b)." Rashi explains that this small effort of closing the eyes may slightly hasten death.

 “Against your will you were born, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give an account before the supreme King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He” (Ethics of our Fathers 4:22).


Also see this article: http://books.google.com/books?id=clIrSyxlZ-MC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=euthanasia+talmud&source=web&ots=fOHPvcJb2X&sig=yejTPH5OMw8SBKFkN_uiHR-yg_w

Amazing, Lubab, I want to learn Torah and Talmud with you in person.

[Lubab]

For C.F.

The Talmudic and scriptural support for what I am saying:


Probably the earliest story regardomg  euthanasia is found in the Talmud (Avoda Zara 18). One of the ten martyrs, Rabbi Hanina ben Teradyon, was burnt at the stake holding a Torah scroll. His students stood around and said to him, “Rebbe, open your mouth. Let the flames and smoke enter your body and choke you so that you will die quicker and not suffer this terrible torture.”

He said, “No. G-d gave me my soul. Only He should retrieve it from me.”


The Talmud states as follows: "One who is in a dying condition (goses) is regarded as a living person in all respects (didn't find source yet)." This rule is reiterated by the codifiers of Jewish law including, Maimonides and Karo. The Talmud continues:

"One may not bind his jaws, nor stop up his openings, nor place a metallic vessel or any cooling object on his navel until such time that he dies, as it is written: Before the silver cord is snapped asunder (Ecclesiastes 12:6). One may not move him, nor may one place him on sand or on salt until he dies. One may not close the eyes of the dying person. He who touches them or moves them is shedding blood because Rabbi Meir used to say: This can be compared to a flickering flame. As soon as a person touches it, it becomes extinguished. So too, whosoever closes the eyes of the dying is considered to have taken his soul (didn't find source yet...)."


Other laws pertaining to a goses, or dying person, such as the preparation of a coffin, inheritance, marriage, and so forth, are then cited.

The Talmud also mentions: "He who closes the eyes of a dying person while the soul is departing is a murderer [lit. he sheds blood]. This may be compared to a lamp that is going out. If a man places his finger upon it, it is immediately extinguished (Shabbat 151b)." Rashi explains that this small effort of closing the eyes may slightly hasten death.

 “Against your will you were born, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give an account before the supreme King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He” (Ethics of our Fathers 4:22).


Also see this article: http://books.google.com/books?id=clIrSyxlZ-MC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=euthanasia+talmud&source=web&ots=fOHPvcJb2X&sig=yejTPH5OMw8SBKFkN_uiHR-yg_w

Amazing, Lubab, I want to learn Torah and Talmud with you in person.

That sounds like fun. Dr. Dan. That sounds like fun...

P.S. We can kill whoever G-d says we can kill. Read the Bible and you'll see many examples.

[Ultra Requete]

You're amazing Lubab, modern western people indeed worship their ego and are not wiling to abide G-d laws, thats why I respect ortodox rabbis over liberal christian priests. If the jewish Satan/Acuser is not fallen angel who was snake who tempted Adam and Eve into sin in Garden of Eden? He doesn't sound as agent of G-d.       

[Lubab]

You're amazing Lubab, modern western people indeed worship their ego and are not wiling to abide G-d laws, thats why I respect ortodox rabbis over liberal christian priests. If the jewish Satan/Acuser is not fallen angel who was snake who tempted Adam and Eve into sin in Garden of Eden? He doesn't sound as agent of G-d.       

Thanks. I think what you are trying to say is that if Satan tempted man to Sin then he doesn't sound like an agent of G-d right?
Is that your question. As you wrote it, it doesn't make sense to me.

[q_q_]

IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way.  Then why keep them to suffer?

Why would G-d keep them still alive suffering? If they should have died then why didn't it happen in the car crash?

Lacking an answer to that question, does not mean we should draw conclusions as to G-d wanting them to stay alive, or not wanting them to stay alive.

Here are 3 possible reasons why G-d may want that to happen.
It could be that them staying alive will have some affect on some relative, they get the chance to say their last goodbyes.
Or maybe because G-d knew that this person would be happier being put to death quietly in a hospital, than suddenly in a car crash.
Or maybe it is because another person in the car crash would have been too traumatised were he/she to find that person dead there.

Often when G-d does something, one may ask if it is a reward, a punishment, a test. Your example is really interesting, because it does not fit in there.  But one can ask "how is it for the best".. and I can see those possibilities.

But guessing at the mind/will of G-d (beyond what he as told us) and drawing conclusions is a dangerous business.

(when I say "what he has told us". I speak as a believing jew, what he has told us in the torah)