Question for Lubab.

[judeanoncapta]

No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
  Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.

Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?

No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.

But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.

Thats exactly the problem. (anyway how do you cut and paste parts of shiurim? I want to cut and paste something short also.

try a program called audacity. It is free. type audacity into google.

If you have any questions, write me a pm.

[judeanoncapta]

Now that you have seen Lubab's justification of idolatry, please listen to the other side.

habadjewish messianism.mp3 - 14.64MB

You have a halachik obligation to stop throwing around that word "idolatry" and do a proper Chakira and Derisha.

You are way out of line!

I am not out of line.

You beleive that your Rebbe is the Essence of God clothed in a body.

If that is not idolatry, the word has no meaning.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
  Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.

Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?

No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.

But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.

Thats exactly the problem. (anyway how do you cut and paste parts of shiurim? I want to cut and paste something short also.

try a program called audacity. It is free. type audacity into google.

If you have any questions, write me a pm.

With that program do you have to listin to the whole recording while your recording it? or is it much quicker then that? I allready have a recorder (I just remembered), but it records all the voice and noise, thats going on, on the computer while I click the record buttom.

[judeanoncapta]

No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
  Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.

Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?

No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.

But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.

Thats exactly the problem. (anyway how do you cut and paste parts of shiurim? I want to cut and paste something short also.

try a program called audacity. It is free. type audacity into google.

If you have any questions, write me a pm.

With that program do you have to listin to the whole recording while your recording it? or is it much quicker then that? I allready have a recorder (I just remembered), but it records all the voice and noise, thats going on, on the computer while I click the record buttom.

Yes, it only records whatever is coming out of your speakers.

[judeanoncapta]

No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.

But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.

I don't think Lubab would think its ok to "pray" to the Rebbe. And I am hesitant to bring the Rebbe in these talks here out of respect for him. I do hold him in very high esteem.

Now, I have saved on my favorites a link to a Chabad article that explains how in the past Jews have visited the graves of Tzaddikim and when it's permissible as long as someone does not actually pray to the dead etc.

I know it's wrong to beseeching the dead don't get me wrong. But is it really beeseching the dead in the case of the ohels and when someone knows when it would be crossing the line and assur? Like the story of Caleb, who visited & prayed at the graves of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob and Leah in Hebron etc...naturally he didn't pray to them, he prayed for himself while connecting his soul to the place.
That's just how I see it.
Of course, I am a humble ignorant person here and just a female so it would be out of place for me to go further.  But I just don't think Lubab feels this way. It's just different philospohies and I wont think any less of Chabad or Lubab ever because of this.

This is how a Chabad rabbi explains this: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm

I also agree with what you say Tzvi Ben Roshel.

There is disagreement in Halakha as to whether one should pray at the graves of Tzaddikim.

Most say it is fine but there are a few who disagree.

Either way, God will listen to your prayer if it is said sincerely much more than if a deceased Tzaddik prays for you instead.

[Lubab]

No their is a clear and big difference between the Kabbalists and students of the Arizal, and what we unfortunatly see within Chabad. One can have respect, and admiration for a great person, and Talmid Chacham. One can look up to another person, no problem, BUT it is definitly assur to give "G-d-like" characterists to a human being no matter how great he or she was. It is also forbidden to idolize a human being, and pray to a human, yes asking G-d for something in the merit and becuase of the merit of a great Tzaddik is one thing, (asking him to be a lawyer so to speak for you), but to actually pray to a dead or any other human being is assur and is kafira.
  Listin to the part where I told you to listin to- about what Rabbi Mizrahi brings on this subject this week, quoting the RambaN.

Would going to the Rebbe's ohel be out according to what you are saying?

No. BUT praying To the Rebbe would be wrong. Rabbi Mizrahi in this weeks lecture (towards the end) explains these things, he says that one does not need to go to the graves of Tzaddikim etc. to talk to G-d. (my own words)- you can communicate with G-d on your own without going to different graves etc. But it wouldn't necessarily hurt going to a grave, etc. BUT praying to the Rebbe is a whole different thing and is completly assur.

But Lubab would tell you that since the Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body, one could pray to him with no problem.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

[Lubab]

Now that you have seen Lubab's justification of idolatry, please listen to the other side.

habadjewish messianism.mp3 - 14.64MB

You have a halachik obligation to stop throwing around that word "idolatry" and do a proper Chakira and Derisha.

You are way out of line!

I am not out of line.

You beleive that your Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body.

If that is not idolatry, the word has no meaning.

You have some questions you need to ask me before you can draw that conclusion, don't you?
Or you just want to defame?

[judeanoncapta]

Now that you have seen Lubab's justification of idolatry, please listen to the other side.

habadjewish messianism.mp3 - 14.64MB

You have a halachik obligation to stop throwing around that word "idolatry" and do a proper Chakira and Derisha.

You are way out of line!

I am not out of line.

You beleive that your Rebbe is the Essence of G-d clothed in a body.

If that is not idolatry, the word has no meaning.

You have some questions you need to ask me before you can draw that conclusion, don't you?
Or you just want to defame?

Anyone would draw that conclusion. Lubab, your " Ich Ken Upteitchen Yeder Zach" attitude is annoying and deceptive.

[MassuhDGoodName]

judeanoncapta:  "...I am not out of line..."

Actually, YOU ARE out of line!

Most folks have enough 'walking around' sense not to hang their dirty laundry out in public for the whole world to see!

And, what exactly makes YOU the world's foremost Authority on all spiritual matters?

So far, you've violated the privacy of your own and another member's private messages, and are disrupting the forum by attacking another member (and, I might add, a member and Moderator who happens to be an esteemed scholar of Torah) for points of metaphysical doctrine with which you disagree.

As they say at the barrooms, "If you want to continue with this, take it outside."

An apology and sense of humility are what is necessary and should be forthcoming.

And meanwhile, still, Israel and Jews worldwide are facing great peril.

There is simply no time for such frivolous luxuries as interpersonal attacks.

Such division among us led to the Fall of the 2nd Temple and our Exile from The Land.

[judeanoncapta]

judeanoncapta:  "...I am not out of line..."

Actually, YOU ARE out of line!

Most folks have enough 'walking around' sense not to hang their dirty laundry out in public for the whole world to see!

And, what exactly makes YOU the world's foremost Authority on all spiritual matters?

So far, you've violated the privacy of your own and another member's private messages, and are disrupting the forum by attacking another member (and, I might add, a member and Moderator who happens to be an esteemed scholar of Torah) for points of metaphysical doctrine with which you disagree.

As they say at the barrooms, "If you want to continue with this, take it outside."

An apology and sense of humility are what is necessary and should be forthcoming.

And meanwhile, still, Israel and Jews worldwide are facing great peril.

There is simply no time for such frivolous luxuries as interpersonal attacks.

Such division among us led to the Fall of the 2nd Temple and our Exile from The Land.

I will let Chaim decide.

If he keeps Lubab on as Moderator, I will leave the forum. Without a splash, I will just leave my friends my email and leave.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

judeanoncapta:  "...I am not out of line..."

Actually, YOU ARE out of line!

Most folks have enough 'walking around' sense not to hang their dirty laundry out in public for the whole world to see!

And, what exactly makes YOU the world's foremost Authority on all spiritual matters?

So far, you've violated the privacy of your own and another member's private messages, and are disrupting the forum by attacking another member (and, I might add, a member and Moderator who happens to be an esteemed scholar of Torah) for points of metaphysical doctrine with which you disagree.

As they say at the barrooms, "If you want to continue with this, take it outside."

An apology and sense of humility are what is necessary and should be forthcoming.

And meanwhile, still, Israel and Jews worldwide are facing great peril.

There is simply no time for such frivolous luxuries as interpersonal attacks.

Such division among us led to the Fall of the 2nd Temple and our Exile from The Land.

Its not out of line, Judea is basding himself and his arguments from the Torah, and Torah scolars. Its no mitzva to be humble in this situation. Sometimes "Holy Boldness" is needed.

[Lubab]

judeanoncapta:  "...I am not out of line..."

Actually, YOU ARE out of line!

Most folks have enough 'walking around' sense not to hang their dirty laundry out in public for the whole world to see!

And, what exactly makes YOU the world's foremost Authority on all spiritual matters?

So far, you've violated the privacy of your own and another member's private messages, and are disrupting the forum by attacking another member (and, I might add, a member and Moderator who happens to be an esteemed scholar of Torah) for points of metaphysical doctrine with which you disagree.

As they say at the barrooms, "If you want to continue with this, take it outside."

An apology and sense of humility are what is necessary and should be forthcoming.

And meanwhile, still, Israel and Jews worldwide are facing great peril.

There is simply no time for such frivolous luxuries as interpersonal attacks.

Such division among us led to the Fall of the 2nd Temple and our Exile from The Land.

Its not out of line, Judea is basding himself and his arguments from the Torah, and Torah scolars. Its no mitzva to be humble in this situation. Sometimes "Holy Boldness" is needed.

Look to the Torah Tzvi, for how to handle these situations. This is not being handled properly at all. There has been no chakira no derisha no honest search for what I really believe.

In a word: it is a witchunt and you are the one that is inspiring JNC to continue with this ridiculous crusade.

[jdl4ever]

Well as long as you don't think the Rebbe is G-d then I suggest all of you guys stop arguing publically and do it in private instead since this is not going to lead to anything productive.  I'm Misnagad so you all know where I stand but I'm not going to join these types of arguments that cause hatred between Jews & where there is no hope of convincing the other side. 

[q_q_]

I do not think we can really have it both ways..

Condemn him for believing X, and Condemn him for describing or promoting belief in X. Or deny him the right to elaborate.

I think an elaboration of Lulab`s controversial views would be very interesting, but not suitable for the JTF forum..Lest people step in and be misled..

Both judea and lulab have alot to contribute..

Lulab humbly said that all that matters to him is saving jewish and gentiles lives.. And Judea feels it unsuitable for a person with such views to be moderator..

I did not think lulab should be thrown out. He has alot to contribute.

I think a healthy compromise that would let us benefit from the knowledge of Judea, and Lulab too, would be if Lulab was not moderator, but he was allowed to post here, without his posts being screened/delayed before appearing.  On the understanding that he does not bring up this Yechi stuff in the JTF forum.



 

[Raulmarrio2000]

What is Yechi? Soory for my ignorance, I am a Gentile and my Hebrew is very poor.
Anyway, I believe you guys are just causing machloket by attacking Lubab. He has never tried to "convert" anyone to Chasiduth. You have just sent him a private question about difficult metaphisical issues in Hebrew, and then brought his answer to the forum in English. I am Italian and we say "traduttore tradittore" (A transalator is a traitor).

[Lubab]

I regret having gotten involved in this dispute in the first place.

As someone said earlier, there are Jews in peril. We all agree we want to help them. That is what this forum is about.

We are wasting valuable time and energy debating old questions that have already been asked and answered many times by people much smarter than all of us.

Let us PLEASE get back to the vital work at hand and stop this fighting amongst ourselves while we have knives at our throats. R"L


If anyone has questions about my personal beliefs, they may ask me. But this is not the place for such a discussion.

The thread is locked.

[judeanoncapta]

Well as long as you don't think the Rebbe is G-d then I suggest all of you guys stop arguing publically and do it in private instead since this is not going to lead to anything productive.  I'm Misnagad so you all know where I stand but I'm not going to join these types of arguments that cause hatred between Jews & where there is no hope of convincing the other side. 

He beleives the Rebbe is God clothed in a body, jdl4ever.