Author Topic: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)  (Read 11074 times)

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Offline Lubab

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Recently there have been some accusations and misunderstanding regarding statements of one or more of the Chabad Rebbe’s found in their discourses on hasidic philosophy.

In my opinion these fractious arguments could have been avoided if only people were a bit more familiar with the philosophy and language of Chassidut and specifically the philosophy of Chabad Chassidut.

In the interests of fostering greater Ahavat Yisroel between our fellow Jews I wish to give a few lessons here in Chabad hasidic philosophy and offer the opportunity for anyone to ask questions on its beliefs.

May this be a great step towards the sort of unity between the Jewish people that will bring about the coming of Moshiach immediately.
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Lesson 1
THE GREAT "CONTRACTION"-LITERAL OR FIGURATIVE?

We begin with a dispute which took place between the Vilna Gaon and the Alter Rebbe, Rabbi Schneir Zalman of Liadi over some statements by the Arizal.

(I’m not translating everything here, if anyone wants a translation of a word or name just holler).

The Arizal basing himself on the Holy Zohar and the account of creation in the Torah, speaks about how G-d created the world.

He speaks several times about how G-d made a “tzimtzum” (literally contraction) within Himself leaving an “empty space”which he used to create the world.

The dispute revolved around the nature of this tzimtzum. Was it literal or figurative?
Did G-d literally contract Himself, leave a place where He no longer was, and create the world there?

The Vilna Gaon said “yes” this was literal. The implication is that where there is the physical world, G-d is absent.

The Alter Rebbe disagreed.  He cites various Pesukim to the effect that “Ein Od Milvad” really there is no true existence but G-d. He maintained that in Judaism it would be impossible to say that G-d created a place where He does not exist, that G-d is everywhere and even if he could create a place where He doesn’t exist, that place too would be His creation, and dependent on Him for existence and then again, it’s really only G-d’s existence.

This is similar to what the Rambam says about G-d’s relationship with the world in Hilchos Yesodei Hatorah. The Rambam does not say that G-d separated Himself from the world, he says “Kol Haemtzim MeAmitis Himatzo”…all existence derives from the truth of His existence i.e. despite what our eyes might tell us…G-d is the only true existence. Everything that exists, is somehow just an expression of that true existence of G-d. (As a side note, it is interesting to ponder the correlations between this statement of the Rambam and the Grand Unified Theory of Everything that physicists and scientist are searching for. It would appear that even science would agree that all matter can be boiled down to 4 basic substances (I believe matter, energy, electromagnetism...and I forgot the other one) and that all four must have some unified existence from which they all derive and are mere expressions of in the same way that each example of matter is a mere expression of the unified existence of the abstraction knowns as "matter"), though they do not yet know what that unified existence is. The Rambam we may surmise would probably say that the unified truth behind everything that they are looking for is G-d, and hasidic philsophy would certainly agree with this).

For these reasons the Alter Rebbe maintains that the Arizal’s use of the word “tzimtzum” is figurative not literal. G-d created a figurative “space” where He appears not to be but this is just a result of the figurative “contraction” which He made that leaves that impression.


THE INHERENT CONTRADICTION
This of course presents a problem.

We are all realists here. We know that the world that we see is real. Even the Torah tells us that G-d created the world in the first verse and G-d forbid to say this is some sort of lie or illusion.

However we also know that the only according to hasidic philosophy that the only true existence is G-d. And G-d has no body, no form, no limits, He is infinite and perfect.

So how can we reconcile the existence of a material, limited, finite world, with the fact that the only true existence is an infinte, limitless G-d?

How could these two things be true at the same time?

This is basically the question that hasidic philosphohy sets out to explain. It is a deep subject that nobody should hope to begin to understand on the first try.

However, through the hasidic discrouses of the Chabad hasidic Rebbe’s this concept has been brought down closer and closer to our understanding (note: the reason Chabad is called Chabad is because its goal is to understand these deep concepts in with our wisdom knowledge and understanding and not ONLY in just a way of faith).

To try to explain this concept many many analogies are given to make sense of the fact that that the G-dly and infinite and the limited and finite can coexist and do not really contradict.

Some people may wonder how G-d could transcend contradiction…but remember that was the point of the Aron HaKodesh. It taught us that when it comes to G-d, limited and unlimited are just two sides of the same coin. He could transcend these opposites and that’s why the Aron on one hand took up space and on the other hand did not. Both were 100% true, difficult though that may be to understand. But with G-d’s help we will begin to understand this.


ANALOGIES TO HELP US UNDERSTAND
So a few analogies are offered to help us understand.
We will deal with two of them now: the anology of the relationship between the soul and the body, and the analogy of a dream and the dreamer.

Soul and Body
There's this guy named Reuven. Then someone named Shimon comes and punches Reuven in the arm.

Reuven says: "Hey, why did you punch me?"

Shimon says: "I didn't punch you, buddy. I punched your arm. Your arm is not you. Even without your arm you would still be Bob. The real Bob is not even your body. The real Bob is way beyond all of these things.

I could never even hurt the real Bob if I tried."

Reuven still is angry at Shimon for punching him.

Who is right?

On one hand Reuven is not his arm. Reuven is just Reuven. But Bob also expresses himself through his arm. He's connected himself to his arm to such an extent that when you punch it...the whole Reuven get's upset. The real Reuven get's angry. And the real Reuven according to the Torah is entitled to recompense.

So while on one hand Reuven is way beyond just his arm...he has also connected his true self to that arm. And if you wrong Reuven's arm...according to Jewish law...you've wronged Reuven.

You need several more analogies to understand how this applies with G-d and the world but this at least get's us started.

If you are just praying to the rocks and the trees without recognizing the G-d that created and is behind all of these thing...then this is like me talking to your arm and asking it to do me a favor. That's an insult to you...it's a denail of your true self and your free choice.

In the case of G-d it's idolatry.

That's not what we're supposed to do.

But if we look at the trees, rocks etc. and find the G-d behind it all...creating it all..and controlling it all with His complete free choice...and then we trace back that realization to our original view to ultimately find that those rocks, trees etc. are not just rocks and trees...they are G-d expressing His true self through all of these things.

Then you start to see how the rocks and trees are connected with G-d essence in a similar way to how Reuven's arm is connected with the real Reuven even though we all know that Reuven's arm is not Bob.

The Dream and the Dreamer
Another way to think about all of this is a dream.

In a dream we create a whole world, a whole reality, with rocks and plants and animals and people. And there is even a "you" person in the dream. But there are also many "others" in the dream. Some of them may even be your enemies and may chase you.

Yet, it is really all you.

And, yet, you give away your control, as if you don't control the "others", even though they really only exist from you.


If anyone has any question on any of this please ask away!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 09:19:07 AM by lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline judeanoncapta

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The Vilna Gaon is definitely correct on this one.

And Chabad is dead wrong.
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Offline Lubab

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The Vilna Gaon is definitely correct on this one.

And Chabad is dead wrong.

Actually this debate isn't even going on anymore. I don't think you will be able to find any big Orthodox Rabbi today that will tell you that the Tzimtzum is Kipshuto because this would mean G-d had changed, and G-d cannot change.

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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I didn't read it, yet (B"H after I finish listining to what I am right now). But the question and problem isn't with the Alter Rebbe, but with the recent mess and question.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Lubab

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I didn't read it, yet (B"H after I finish listining to what I am right now). But the question and problem isn't with the Alter Rebbe, but with the recent mess and question.

First read it because it is that same old debate that is manifesting as this mess we have today. It hasn't been resolved. I hope with understanding and education we can resolve it here.
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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I didn't read it, yet (B"H after I finish listining to what I am right now). But the question and problem isn't with the Alter Rebbe, but with the recent mess and question.

First read it because it is that same old debate that is manifesting as this mess we have today. It hasn't been resolved. I hope with understanding and education we can resolve it here.


okay, once I finish the lecture im listining now. Actually, what im listining to right now is sooo relevent to Chabad, allthough Chabad isn't explicitly mentioned, but its in the last 10 minutes of the lecture, that im listining now.

  "the illusion of material" - Rabbi Mizrahi, the link to the site- Torahanytime.com - you can listin to the last 10, (even less minutes. from 1 hour and around 25 minutes.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 01:44:35 PM by Tzvi Ben Roshel »
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Okay I read it now. What does this have to do with giving a human G-d like features? In that case, since everything is G-d's creation, then we should be worshipping everything around us. Anyway this is exactly how idolatry was created. The ancients first believed in G-d, then they started making intermediaries, the sun, moon and other things, then eventually they completly were worshiping objects instead of the creator of the World.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Lubab

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Okay I read it now. What does this have to do with giving a human G-d like features? In that case, since everything is G-d's creation, then we should be worshipping everything around us. Anyway this is exactly how idolatry was created. The ancients first believed in G-d, then they started making intermediaries, the sun, moon and other things, then eventually they completly were worshiping objects instead of the creator of the World.

Exactly. Did you see the example with Reuven. If he think that Reuven is his arm this is the equivalent of idolatry. You need to know that Reuven is much more than his arm, but yet his being is expressed all the way down into his arm.

This is a subtle point, but it makes the difference between idolarty and true Judaism, but if you are not careful you can miss it.

We are not G-d forbid, saying that G-d is a rock, a tree, or anything else.

We are saying that G-d is above and beyond all of those things, however, in each of these things, if we trace it up to its source, we can find G-d. You need many more analogies to understand this, so don't think you understand what I'm saying and start jumping to conclusions.

All I am saying is what the Rambam says, all existence is derived from G-d's essential existence.

This process of tracing creation back up to its' source in G-dliness is the basis of the study of Kabbalah and hasidic philosophy.
Interestingly enough, the scientists are doing the exact same thing right now.

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline judeanoncapta

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This is simple Pantheism.

According to Lubab, when an idolator say his idol has G-d within it, he is telling the truth.

That is the danger of Pantheism. Once you say G-d is literally within everything, there is nothing wrong with idolatry because G-d is within the idol or within the person actually.

And you're wrong about everyone now beleiving in Pantheism, it's not true.
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Offline Lubab

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This is simple Pantheism.

According to Lubab, when an idolator say his idol has G-d within it, he is telling the truth.

That is the danger of Pantheism. Once you say G-d is literally within everything, there is nothing wrong with idolatry because G-d is within the idol or within the person actually.

And you're wrong about everyone now beleiving in Pantheism, it's not true.

There is something very wrong with idolatry because they think G-d is limited to that form. G-d is not limited to any form. We are saying that He remains formless while being omnipresent at the same time. It seems like a contradiction, but is really not, when you buckle down and learn the analogies.

It all depends on how you understand these things.

We know we all pray to the Kodesh Hakodoshim, but do we really pray to the Kodesh Hakadoshim, no way! That's just a place where G-d's presense is REVEALED to us more than any other place. We are not worshiping the Aron. We are worshipping G-d as He is expressed in that Aron, but yet remains completely unchanged.

I don't really expect you to understand this JNC because you are not even trying to understand. You are trying to accuse and knock me out of the moderator spot.

If you truly cared about me and idolatry, you would do what the halach says and make a proper investigation. Instead you choose to draw your own conclusions about what I beleive and then attack those beliefs which you've ascribed to me (wrongly). Well it just doesn't work like that.

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2008, 06:15:31 PM »
JNC do YOU believe that G-d's presence was revealed in the Beit Hamikdash?

If so, how do you differentiate yourself from the idolator who says he's not worhipping the idol, but what the idol represents?

My point here is not to say I agree with the idolator, G-d forbid. My point is to say that subtle changes in the way you understand a statement in the Torah can make huge differences and we need to be careful before assigning labels before we have a complete understanding of what is actually being proposed.
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2008, 06:33:16 PM »
It just occured to me that anyone who thinks this is pantheism simply didn't read what I wrote or didn't understand it.

Pantheism would be the equivalent of Reuven being his arm in the analogy I gave. That is not what we are saying here at all as I already explained.

I can explain and explain, but if someone does not want to understand, they will not understand.

If they can't debate they will defame and there's nothing I can do about that.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 06:35:10 PM by lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2008, 07:02:42 PM »
Lubab, say what you want, but it is only Chabad that seems to be producing Elokists, no other group is doing this.

Coincidence? I think not.
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Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2008, 07:26:19 PM »
I have read Tania (I don't read it anymore, since my Rav says that once I decided to remain a Goy, I must stop studying any Torah which is not relevant to Noachides), and I agree with the Alter Rebbe.
And you, Judean, why did you consult the Rav in a Chassic Hebrew code, and then translated his answer to English? Just to confuse those who don't understand that code???

Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2008, 07:29:59 PM »
I have read Tania (I don't read it anymore, since my Rav says that once I decided to remain a Goy, I must stop studying any Torah which is not relevant to Noachides), and I agree with the Alter Rebbe.
And you, Judean, why did you consult the Rav in a Chassic Hebrew code, and then translated his answer to English? Just to confuse those who don't understand that code???

You are assuming that those words are code, they are not.

I didn't confuse anyone, Lubab is trying to do that in order to justify his idolatry.

I asked him if he beleived his Rabbi was the essence of God clothed in a body and he said yes.

That is not code for something else, that is idolatry according to the Torah, without a question.
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Offline Lubab

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2008, 07:42:50 PM »
I have read Tania (I don't read it anymore, since my Rav says that once I decided to remain a Goy, I must stop studying any Torah which is not relevant to Noachides), and I agree with the Alter Rebbe.
And you, Judean, why did you consult the Rav in a Chassic Hebrew code, and then translated his answer to English? Just to confuse those who don't understand that code???

You are assuming that those words are code, they are not.

I didn't confuse anyone, Lubab is trying to do that in order to justify his idolatry.

I asked him if he beleived his Rabbi was the essence of G-d clothed in a body and he said yes.

That is not code for something else, that is idolatry according to the Torah, without a question.

Wrong. The words "enclothed" have a very specific meaning to be differentiated with "shored" "indwelling"

You need to understand what we are talking about when we say "Rebbe" in this context and we need to understand a few things about G-d too which you do not understand.

You need to learn about the difference between "hislashbshus hashechina" and "hashraas hashechina" and many many other things.

But you dont' want to understand these things. You want to defame me and that's the end of it.

I still love you JNC. You are a very well meaning person.

G-d willilng one day when you can let go of your hate for Chabad and just delve deeper into the meaning of the Torah you will come to understand all of these matters well.

There is no use in talking to such a person because you are not open to reason at this point.
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2008, 07:47:31 PM »
I have read Tania (I don't read it anymore, since my Rav says that once I decided to remain a Goy, I must stop studying any Torah which is not relevant to Noachides), and I agree with the Alter Rebbe.
And you, Judean, why did you consult the Rav in a Chassic Hebrew code, and then translated his answer to English? Just to confuse those who don't understand that code???

You are assuming that those words are code, they are not.

I didn't confuse anyone, Lubab is trying to do that in order to justify his idolatry.

I asked him if he beleived his Rabbi was the essence of G-d clothed in a body and he said yes.

That is not code for something else, that is idolatry according to the Torah, without a question.

Wrong. The words "enclothed" have a very specific meaning to be differentiated with "shored" "indwelling"

You need to understand what we are talking about when we say "Rebbe" in this context and we need to understand a few things about G-d too which you do not understand.

You need to learn about the difference between "hislashbshus hashechina" and "hashraas hashechina" and many many other things.

But you dont' want to understand these things. You want to defame me and that's the end of it.

I still love you JNC. You are a very well meaning person.

G-d willilng one day when you can let go of your hate for Chabad and just delve deeper into the meaning of the Torah you will come to understand all of these matters well.

There is no use in talking to such a person because you are not open to reason at this point.

I feel about Chabad the way I do because I know Chabad. I come from a Chabad family and learned in Chabad Yeshivos.

My family has been Chabad for atleast 150 years.

So if you wanted to know about my yichus, I'm gezha, Lubab.
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Offline Lubab

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2008, 08:13:30 PM »
I have read Tania (I don't read it anymore, since my Rav says that once I decided to remain a Goy, I must stop studying any Torah which is not relevant to Noachides), and I agree with the Alter Rebbe.
And you, Judean, why did you consult the Rav in a Chassic Hebrew code, and then translated his answer to English? Just to confuse those who don't understand that code???

You are assuming that those words are code, they are not.

I didn't confuse anyone, Lubab is trying to do that in order to justify his idolatry.

I asked him if he beleived his Rabbi was the essence of G-d clothed in a body and he said yes.

That is not code for something else, that is idolatry according to the Torah, without a question.

Wrong. The words "enclothed" have a very specific meaning to be differentiated with "shored" "indwelling"

You need to understand what we are talking about when we say "Rebbe" in this context and we need to understand a few things about G-d too which you do not understand.

You need to learn about the difference between "hislashbshus hashechina" and "hashraas hashechina" and many many other things.

But you dont' want to understand these things. You want to defame me and that's the end of it.

I still love you JNC. You are a very well meaning person.

G-d willilng one day when you can let go of your hate for Chabad and just delve deeper into the meaning of the Torah you will come to understand all of these matters well.

There is no use in talking to such a person because you are not open to reason at this point.

I feel about Chabad the way I do because I know Chabad. I come from a Chabad family and learned in Chabad Yeshivos.

My family has been Chabad for atleast 150 years.

So if you wanted to know about my yichus, I'm gezha, Lubab.

Gezha doesn't mean squat.

They are some of the most messed up families around. And it also doesn't mean you know the first thing about chassidic terminology because even most lubvitchers do not know how to decode this stuff at all. 

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2008, 10:02:58 PM »
I have read Tania (I don't read it anymore, since my Rav says that once I decided to remain a Goy, I must stop studying any Torah which is not relevant to Noachides), and I agree with the Alter Rebbe.
And you, Judean, why did you consult the Rav in a Chassic Hebrew code, and then translated his answer to English? Just to confuse those who don't understand that code???

You are assuming that those words are code, they are not.

I didn't confuse anyone, Lubab is trying to do that in order to justify his idolatry.

I asked him if he beleived his Rabbi was the essence of G-d clothed in a body and he said yes.

That is not code for something else, that is idolatry according to the Torah, without a question.

Wrong. The words "enclothed" have a very specific meaning to be differentiated with "shored" "indwelling"

You need to understand what we are talking about when we say "Rebbe" in this context and we need to understand a few things about G-d too which you do not understand.

You need to learn about the difference between "hislashbshus hashechina" and "hashraas hashechina" and many many other things.

But you dont' want to understand these things. You want to defame me and that's the end of it.

I still love you JNC. You are a very well meaning person.

G-d willilng one day when you can let go of your hate for Chabad and just delve deeper into the meaning of the Torah you will come to understand all of these matters well.

There is no use in talking to such a person because you are not open to reason at this point.

I feel about Chabad the way I do because I know Chabad. I come from a Chabad family and learned in Chabad Yeshivos.

My family has been Chabad for atleast 150 years.

So if you wanted to know about my yichus, I'm gezha, Lubab.

Gezha doesn't mean squat.

They are some of the most messed up families around. And it also doesn't mean you know the first thing about chassidic terminology because even most lubvitchers do not know how to decode this stuff at all. 



Yichus seemed to have meant alot to you, when you were questioning mine. Now that you find out that my family has been Chabad for 150 years, suddenly it means nothing.
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Offline Lubab

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2008, 10:08:57 PM »
I have read Tania (I don't read it anymore, since my Rav says that once I decided to remain a Goy, I must stop studying any Torah which is not relevant to Noachides), and I agree with the Alter Rebbe.
And you, Judean, why did you consult the Rav in a Chassic Hebrew code, and then translated his answer to English? Just to confuse those who don't understand that code???

You are assuming that those words are code, they are not.

I didn't confuse anyone, Lubab is trying to do that in order to justify his idolatry.

I asked him if he beleived his Rabbi was the essence of G-d clothed in a body and he said yes.

That is not code for something else, that is idolatry according to the Torah, without a question.

Wrong. The words "enclothed" have a very specific meaning to be differentiated with "shored" "indwelling"

You need to understand what we are talking about when we say "Rebbe" in this context and we need to understand a few things about G-d too which you do not understand.

You need to learn about the difference between "hislashbshus hashechina" and "hashraas hashechina" and many many other things.

But you dont' want to understand these things. You want to defame me and that's the end of it.

I still love you JNC. You are a very well meaning person.

G-d willilng one day when you can let go of your hate for Chabad and just delve deeper into the meaning of the Torah you will come to understand all of these matters well.

There is no use in talking to such a person because you are not open to reason at this point.

I feel about Chabad the way I do because I know Chabad. I come from a Chabad family and learned in Chabad Yeshivos.

My family has been Chabad for atleast 150 years.

So if you wanted to know about my yichus, I'm gezha, Lubab.

Gezha doesn't mean squat.

They are some of the most messed up families around. And it also doesn't mean you know the first thing about chassidic terminology because even most lubvitchers do not know how to decode this stuff at all. 



Yichus seemed to have meant alot to you, when you were questioning mine. Now that you find out that my family has been Chabad for 150 years, suddenly it means nothing.

I was talking about REAL yichus. You know, like a straight line of Jews. A straight line of Lubavitchers means very little to me.
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2008, 10:09:48 PM »
As per Chaim's show let me confirm that I do believe with full faith in every word of the Rambam's 13 principles of faith.


"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2008, 09:30:15 AM »
I did hear from somebody, who I think is a misnaged because
a)I read on the sichosinenglish site that (from what I understand) misnagdim take tzimtzum more literally, and it seems he did.
b)speaking to some chabad rabbis, they all disagreed with this guy

He made a very clear argument.. Kabbalistic of course.

He said that there are many worlds. And G-d is everywhere, but in this world we do not see him, because G-d constricted himself, (not contracted). So all objects around us are like his garments. And that is why we do not pray to them. To pray to an object would be like addressing somebody's ear or coat instead of him. 
So how can we know how to worship him.. Only from the instructions he gave us. His mitzvot, are his will for us to do on earth.


The chabad guy said G-d did not constrict himself. He constricted his light / his presence.

I have never delved further. I just heard a lecture from the misnaged guy and asked a chabad guy about what I had heard.

 


Offline Lubab

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2008, 09:33:20 AM »
I did hear from somebody, who I think is a misnaged because
a)I read on the sichosinenglish site that (from what I understand) misnagdim take tzimtzum more literally, and it seems he did.
b)speaking to some chabad rabbis, they all disagreed with this guy

He made a very clear argument.. Kabbalistic of course.

He said that there are many worlds. And G-d is everywhere, but in this world we do not see him, because G-d constricted himself, (not contracted). So all objects around us are like his garments. And that is why we do not pray to them. To pray to an object would be like addressing somebody's ear or coat instead of him. 
So how can we know how to worship him.. Only from the instructions he gave us. His mitzvot, are his will for us to do on earth.


The chabad guy said G-d did not constrict himself. He constricted his light / his presence.

I have never delved further. I just heard a lecture from the misnaged guy and asked a chabad guy about what I had heard.

 



Yes. That's the basic debate. Whether G-d actually removed Himself from this world or He just removed the REVELATION of Himself i.e. He's here, we just don't see Him.

In my view it's impossible to say that G-d actually removed His presence from this world and still be G-d. Saying this would impose several limitations and imperfections on G-d's abilities.
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2008, 10:47:58 AM »
Re:  "...He's here, we just don't see Him..."

Today, we are watching clear and detailed video with stereophonic audio sound, and can store and access these media on a small, thin, spinning plastic disc with a chemical coating, using a concentrated beam of light to scan its surface , extracting the light and sound images off of it by "reading" & converting microscopic pits on the disc surface which represent numerical series of 0's and 1's in various combinations, and then translating the numerical series into glorious audio-video, all the while employing physical properties of electro-magnetism as our energy source for accomplishing this task!

When I was young, a black and white video transmission of a far lesser quality, accompanied by a lesser quality audio, and employing the use of electro-magnetic vacuum tubes to produce, transmit, and recieve this medium,  was considered the "state of the art".

Prior to that "state of the art", Amplitude Modification of audio sound alone, was the "state of the art".

All of the above possibilities, plus an infinite progression of "states of the art" were, and are, always existing.

Therefore, our limited ability to "access" and "understand" each of these scientific advances in greater depth, proves that they have always been present.

Only our own "human" limitations prevent us from accessing infinite, total, and perfect knowledge. 


Offline q_q_

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Re: Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2008, 12:13:55 PM »
I did hear from somebody, who I think is a misnaged because
a)I read on the sichosinenglish site that (from what I understand) misnagdim take tzimtzum more literally, and it seems he did.
b)speaking to some chabad rabbis, they all disagreed with this guy

He made a very clear argument.. Kabbalistic of course.

He said that there are many worlds. And G-d is everywhere, but in this world we do not see him, because G-d constricted himself, (not contracted). So all objects around us are like his garments. And that is why we do not pray to them. To pray to an object would be like addressing somebody's ear or coat instead of him. 
So how can we know how to worship him.. Only from the instructions he gave us. His mitzvot, are his will for us to do on earth.


The chabad guy said G-d did not constrict himself. He constricted his light / his presence.

I have never delved further. I just heard a lecture from the misnaged guy and asked a chabad guy about what I had heard.

 



Yes. That's the basic debate. Whether G-d actually removed Himself from this world or He just removed the REVELATION of Himself i.e. He's here, we just don't see Him.

In my view it's impossible to say that G-d actually removed His presence from this world and still be G-d. Saying this would impose several limitations and imperfections on G-d's abilities.

Neither view that I stated claims that he removed himself.