General Category > Introduce Yourself
hello
newman:
--- Quote from: ~*Mills*~ on February 19, 2008, 03:56:50 AM ---YES! It's confusing!
I hear people say Abraham is the "first Hebrew" the "first Jew" etc...and then he's not.
I gotta talk to my rabbi again. I'm afraid I'm too ignorant on the matter :'(
--- End quote ---
'First Hebrew' is correct.
Rabbi Benjamin Blech's Complete Idiots Guide to Jewish History and Culture is really good for stuff like this.
BTW, I'm not calling YOU a 'complete idiot' but as I'm a bit of a mental pigmy, books ;like his are a G-dsend.
Abdul-Azim:
--- Quote from: newman on February 19, 2008, 03:49:24 AM ---
--- Quote from: ~*Mills*~ on February 19, 2008, 03:10:32 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 19, 2008, 03:01:40 AM ---Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).
--- End quote ---
Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! :(
--- End quote ---
I'm no expert but to get technical...............
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.
Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.
After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).
However,
Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).
Confusing, huh? :(
--- End quote ---
how were they hebrew? Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?
newman:
--- Quote from: Abdul-Azim on February 19, 2008, 04:56:48 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 19, 2008, 03:49:24 AM ---
--- Quote from: ~*Mills*~ on February 19, 2008, 03:10:32 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 19, 2008, 03:01:40 AM ---Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).
--- End quote ---
Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! :(
--- End quote ---
I'm no expert but to get technical...............
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.
Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.
After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).
However,
Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).
Confusing, huh? :(
--- End quote ---
how were they hebrew? Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?
--- End quote ---
Yes. But he worshiped the one true G-d (NOT allah the moondog) not the idols of Ur. He originated the 'Hebrew' ethnicity. It's not race but 'ethnicity'. Jews, Hebrews, Israelites etc are not a race but a nation or ethnicity defined by a religion.
Abdul-Azim:
--- Quote from: newman on February 19, 2008, 05:03:09 AM ---
--- Quote from: Abdul-Azim on February 19, 2008, 04:56:48 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 19, 2008, 03:49:24 AM ---
--- Quote from: ~*Mills*~ on February 19, 2008, 03:10:32 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 19, 2008, 03:01:40 AM ---Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).
--- End quote ---
Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! :(
--- End quote ---
I'm no expert but to get technical...............
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.
Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.
After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).
However,
Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).
Confusing, huh? :(
--- End quote ---
how were they hebrew? Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?
--- End quote ---
Yes. But he worshiped the one true G-d (NOT allah the moondog) not the idols of Ur. He originated the 'Hebrew' ethnicity. It's not race but 'ethnicity'. Jews, Hebrews, Israelites etc are not a race but a nation or ethnicity defined by a religion.
--- End quote ---
so ishmael was a hebrew as well then? after all, an angel was sent to save him.
newman:
--- Quote from: Abdul-Azim on February 19, 2008, 05:05:31 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 19, 2008, 05:03:09 AM ---
--- Quote from: Abdul-Azim on February 19, 2008, 04:56:48 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 19, 2008, 03:49:24 AM ---
--- Quote from: ~*Mills*~ on February 19, 2008, 03:10:32 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 19, 2008, 03:01:40 AM ---Abraham was not a Jew. Isaac was not a Jew nor was Israel aka Jacob a Jew. They were the patriarchs and were technically noachide hassidim. The DESCENDANTS of Israel are the Jews (ie: Children of Israel).
--- End quote ---
Oh yeah, Newman. I remember talking about it at another thread.
Some people regard Abraham as the "first Hebrew". And others are like "NO how could he have been". It's so confusing at times, to many opinions on the matter! :(
--- End quote ---
I'm no expert but to get technical...............
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were hebrews (ethnically) and noachides (in religion). There was no Torah then.
Jacob's (Israel's) sons and their descendants up until The Law-giving at Sinai were Israelites or Children of Israel.
After Sinai the Israelites became the Keepers of Torah and a Nation of Priests (what we popularly call Jews).
However,
Jew actually means 'man of Judah' as in from the tribe of Judah. But by popular useage, 'Jew' now means all descendants (maternally) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (or those who hallachically convert to Judaism).
Confusing, huh? :(
--- End quote ---
how were they hebrew? Ibrahim was from Ur, was he not?
--- End quote ---
Yes. But he worshiped the one true G-d (NOT allah the moondog) not the idols of Ur. He originated the 'Hebrew' ethnicity. It's not race but 'ethnicity'. Jews, Hebrews, Israelites etc are not a race but a nation or ethnicity defined by a religion.
--- End quote ---
so ishmael was a hebrew as well then? after all, an angel was sent to save him.
--- End quote ---
#
No. He was the first Ishmaelite or arab.
G-d told Abraham to kick him and his mother out. G_d declared that Ishmael would be 'donkey of a man whose hand would be against the world and all the world against him'. That's a pretty good description of the arab people , BTW.
G-D only wanted the 'right stuff' to form the basis of a chosen people in those days.
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