Guns and Self-Defense > Guns/Firearms
Indian army homegrown assault rifle inspired by gali
White Israelite:
--- Quote from: newman on February 20, 2008, 12:25:09 AM ---I cannot for the life of me understand why poeople have to design afresh.
The US took the FG42 gas system and the MG42 feed system to create the M60 and it was an abortion from day 1!!
Why didn't they just steal the design of the MG42 (which works A1)? The krauts lost so who would have cared. The US stole the 98 Mauser design for the 03 Springfield and didn't pay the squareheads a bean.
Why didn't India just buy a liscence to produce AKMs or Galils in 5.56mm Cal?
--- End quote ---
Good question, south africa just reverse engineered the Galil and manufactured there own, it was a smart move and it held up for them well in their wars. No need to reverse a perfected design unless it's ergonomically or changing the caliber.
newman:
--- Quote from: Cohen on February 20, 2008, 01:01:10 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 20, 2008, 12:25:09 AM ---I cannot for the life of me understand why poeople have to design afresh.
The US took the FG42 gas system and the MG42 feed system to create the M60 and it was an abortion from day 1!!
Why didn't they just steal the design of the MG42 (which works A1)? The krauts lost so who would have cared. The US stole the 98 Mauser design for the 03 Springfield and didn't pay the squareheads a bean.
Why didn't India just buy a liscence to produce AKMs or Galils in 5.56mm Cal?
--- End quote ---
Good question, south africa just reverse engineered the Galil and manufactured there own, it was a smart move and it held up for them well in their wars. No need to reverse a perfected design unless it's ergonomically or changing the caliber.
--- End quote ---
Even when building the Galil, the israelis took a proven AK/Valmet reciever and a good FNC folding stock, did a calibre change and improved the safety selector location. Why mess with something proven to work?
In Australia we tried building our own submarines instead of buying Type 212/214 German ones and look at the long, expensive mess we ended up with. Why can't people learn?
White Israelite:
--- Quote from: newman on February 20, 2008, 01:06:16 AM ---
--- Quote from: Cohen on February 20, 2008, 01:01:10 AM ---
--- Quote from: newman on February 20, 2008, 12:25:09 AM ---I cannot for the life of me understand why poeople have to design afresh.
The US took the FG42 gas system and the MG42 feed system to create the M60 and it was an abortion from day 1!!
Why didn't they just steal the design of the MG42 (which works A1)? The krauts lost so who would have cared. The US stole the 98 Mauser design for the 03 Springfield and didn't pay the squareheads a bean.
Why didn't India just buy a liscence to produce AKMs or Galils in 5.56mm Cal?
--- End quote ---
Good question, south africa just reverse engineered the Galil and manufactured there own, it was a smart move and it held up for them well in their wars. No need to reverse a perfected design unless it's ergonomically or changing the caliber.
--- End quote ---
Even when building the Galil, the israelis took a proven AK/Valmet reciever and a good FNC folding stock, did a calibre change and improved the safety selector location. Why mess with something proven to work?
In Australia we tried building our own submarines instead of buying Type 212/214 German ones and look at the long, expensive mess we ended up with. Why can't people learn?
--- End quote ---
The Galil worked though, while it wasn't successful in Israel, it was successful in many other nations (South America colombia being the only licensed manufacturer in the world now, South Africa, Phillipines, Thailand, Estonia, Portugal, Mexico (yep used by security), Serbia (limited used), Italy (during Somalia war), and many others.
While it was based off the Valmet, and like you said, built off the original Valmet receivers, the Galil made enough changes to improve it over the Valmet. The caliber change to 5.56 was probably by pressure by US government.
Valmet made changes with the milled receiver rather than stamped.
Changes on galil were better ergonomics (improved handguard, improved pistol grip), thumb safety was added which wasn't featured on the Valmet Rk 62, charging handle was upturned for use with either hand (which was a huge plus), stock looks similar to the FAL paratrooper model but it's not, full steel. Looks like it was based off it though, other than that, the gas piston design is same as AK47's and esentially a improved Valmet.
Personally I think they should have changed the magazines to use AR15 mags, they make a adapter but I think it was a mistake to use the AK mag release (too slow)
newman:
I know. That was my point. The Galil used an existing design that worked. IMI didn't try starting afresh. They did manage to make changes without compromising the good points of the basic design.
Point is, IMI has lot's of experience with weapons design, India doesn't. They should have built a proven weapon under liscence.
White Israelite:
--- Quote from: newman on February 20, 2008, 02:25:46 AM ---I know. That was my point. The Galil used an existing design that worked. IMI didn't try starting afresh. They did manage to make changes without compromising the good points of the basic design.
Point is, IMI has lot's of experience with weapons design, India doesn't. They should have built a proven weapon under liscence.
--- End quote ---
Oh I agree, I think India is building AK47's under license currently known as the AK-7.
India also has TAR-21 (Tavor Assault Rifle) from Israel, I don't know how many they have yet but it would probably be a better idea, why use national pride to build a weapon when it's costing lives and there are better options? Heck I think in America, we have that problem as well, I think that one of the reasons we stick with the m16 is national pride, but people don't realize how horrible of a design it was. Stoners design was fine but Armalite screwed it up. I think enough people have lost their lives to a inferior design like the M16. Hopefully India will learn too that the INSAS isn't worth it and decide to field their military with the Tavor's.
Actually come to think of it, India has a license to produce Tavor's. They have one variant known as the Zittara.
The Zittara multi purpose carbine was first displayed at the Defexpo 2006 Indian defence industry exhibition and is currently being produced by the Indian Ordnance Factory. It is based on Israel's highly successful IWI Micro Tavor assault rifle and is designed for use by special operations forces in close quarter battle. The weapon is designed to be compact, yet versatile and adaptable in the field and is capable of firing three different types of ammunition. It can be used as a carbine (5.56x30 ammunition), an assault rifle (5.56x45mm) and a sub-machinegun firing 9x19mm rounds. It has a claimed accurate range of 200 meters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Indian_Army
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