Indian army homegrown assault rifle inspired by gali

[ASHISH]

The INSAS system was originally planned to have three component weapons: a standard rifle, a carbine, and a squad automatic rifle (LMG), all chambered for 5.56x45mm NATO ammunition. In 1997 the rifle and LMG were ready for mass production, and in 1998 the first units were observed armed with INSAS rifles for the Republic Day Parade . The mass introduction of the INSAS rifle was initially delayed by the lack of the domestically made 5.56 mm ammunition and India accordingly bought significant stocks of ammunition from the Israeli IMI company. At least 300,000 INSAS rifles are in service with the Indian army; some of these have seen action in Indo-Pakistani conflicts.

In the assault rifle version it has semi-auto and 3-round burst modes much like the US M16A2. Derived from the INSAS weapon systems, the INSAS Excalibur Mark-I is ergonomically designed with a folding butt and can fire 20- and 30-round magazines. It is also fitted with a Picatinny rail for mounting of opto-electronic devices. The INSAS Excalibur variant, to be used by the Special forces, has Semi-automatic and full automatic fire modes.



 Although largely based on the ever-popular AK-47, the INSAS has a number of differences making it a unique weapon. It has features borrowed from the FN FNC, the AK-74, the Galil and the G3.

[newman]

The Ishapore SMLE .308 is still a favourite. Ugly but good.

[ASHISH]

The Ishapore SMLE .308 is still a favourite. Ugly but good.

It is widely used by indian police. Indian police officers carrying SMLE Mk III*

[White Israelite]

No offense but i've heard nothing but negative things about the INSAS. It was supposed to take the best features of the Galil and the M16 but ended up being a worse design, to make matters even worse, it's really difficult to screwup an AK design but whoever designed the INSAS apparently didn't do a very good job.

Indian guns let 'Nepal down in Maoist battle'

Reuters
Posted online: Friday, August 12, 2005 at 2008 hours IST
Updated: Friday, August 12, 2005 at 2011 hours IST

Kathmandu, August 12: The Nepali army said on Friday faulty Indian assault rifles were partly responsible for its heavy death toll in a gun battle with Maoist rebels as troops hunted for 75 soldiers still missing after the fighting.

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Forty-three soldiers and a civilian were killed when hundreds of rebels attacked an army base in the remote Kalikot district, 600 km from the capital, Kathmandu, late on Sunday.

The Maoists, fighting to topple Nepal's monarchy and establish Communist rule, say they captured 52 soldiers after the raid, a claim rejected by the army.

Army spokesman Brigadier-General Dipak Gurung said the Indian-manufactured INSAS rifles malfunctioned during the fighting which continued for about 10 hours.

"Soldiers complained that the INSAS rifles did not function properly during the fighting which lasted for a long time," Gurung told a news conference when asked why the army death toll was high.

"May be the weapons we were using were not designed for a long fight. They malfunctioned," he said.

There were also fewer troops at the base as it was a road construction project and not a fighting base, he added.

The army casualties were the heaviest since Maoist violence escalated after King Gyanendra seized direct power in February by sacking the multiparty government.

"There were stoppages during the firing, the rifles got hot and soldiers had to wait for them to cool," another officer said.

India is a key military supplier to the poorly equipped Nepali army. But New Delhi suspended arms supplies six months ago after the King's power grab to press the monarch to restore multi-party democracy and civil liberties.

Nepali troops have complained in the past about technical problems with the Indian designed and built INSAS or Indian Small Arms System assault rifle.

Indian troops using the rifle are also known to have faced difficulties using it, Indian defence experts say. Indian defence officials declined to react to the Nepali comments.

The nine-year Maoist revolt has scared away investors in the desperately cash-strapped nation and wrecked the economy that is heavily dependent on international aid and tourism.

More than 12,500 people have died in the conflict and tens of thousands of people have fled their homes to towns or to neighbouring India to escape the conflict.

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=52642


http://world.guns.ru/assault/as67-e.htm

There are many firearms that are based off the Galil now.

The Croatians made a gun based off the Galil

The APS-95 was a prototype assault rifle in Croatia, chambered in 5.56 NATO. It is a copy of the Israeli Galil. The rifle features a collapsible stock and can be equipped with a thirty-millimetre grenade launcher.

It was never used in Croatian army, and was never adopted or sold to any army in the world, simply because it never made it to serial production. It was not a licensed copy, but it was based on Galil rifle. Guns of similar appearance used by Army of Serbia and Montenegro is the South African copy of the Galil rifle called the R4. Around 2,000 of these R4 rifles were seized by the Yugoslav National Army in Zagreb Pleso Airport, when the Croatian businessman Antun Kikaš tried to smuggle them to Croatian police in 1991.




Serbia also has a version of their own called the Zastava M21 based off the Galil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zastava_M21



Burmas rifle is also based off the Galil





South Africa makes their own version of the Galil with a few differences known as the R4, they have since Apartheid era.

[newman]

I cannot for the life of me understand why poeople have to design afresh.

The US took the FG42 gas system and the MG42 feed system to create the M60 and it was an abortion from day 1!!

Why didn't they just steal the design of the MG42 (which works A1)? The krauts lost so who would have cared. The US stole the 98 Mauser design for the 03 Springfield and didn't pay the squareheads a bean.

Why didn't India just buy a liscence to produce AKMs or Galils in 5.56mm Cal?

[White Israelite]

I cannot for the life of me understand why poeople have to design afresh.

The US took the FG42 gas system and the MG42 feed system to create the M60 and it was an abortion from day 1!!

Why didn't they just steal the design of the MG42 (which works A1)? The krauts lost so who would have cared. The US stole the 98 Mauser design for the 03 Springfield and didn't pay the squareheads a bean.

Why didn't India just buy a liscence to produce AKMs or Galils in 5.56mm Cal?

Good question, south africa just reverse engineered the Galil and manufactured there own, it was a smart move and it held up for them well in their wars. No need to reverse a perfected design unless it's ergonomically or changing the caliber.

[newman]

I cannot for the life of me understand why poeople have to design afresh.

The US took the FG42 gas system and the MG42 feed system to create the M60 and it was an abortion from day 1!!

Why didn't they just steal the design of the MG42 (which works A1)? The krauts lost so who would have cared. The US stole the 98 Mauser design for the 03 Springfield and didn't pay the squareheads a bean.

Why didn't India just buy a liscence to produce AKMs or Galils in 5.56mm Cal?

Good question, south africa just reverse engineered the Galil and manufactured there own, it was a smart move and it held up for them well in their wars. No need to reverse a perfected design unless it's ergonomically or changing the caliber.

Even when building the Galil, the israelis took a proven AK/Valmet reciever and a good FNC folding stock, did a calibre change and improved the safety selector location. Why mess with something proven to work?

In Australia we tried building our own submarines instead of buying Type 212/214 German ones and look at the long, expensive mess we ended up with. Why can't people learn?

[White Israelite]

I cannot for the life of me understand why poeople have to design afresh.

The US took the FG42 gas system and the MG42 feed system to create the M60 and it was an abortion from day 1!!

Why didn't they just steal the design of the MG42 (which works A1)? The krauts lost so who would have cared. The US stole the 98 Mauser design for the 03 Springfield and didn't pay the squareheads a bean.

Why didn't India just buy a liscence to produce AKMs or Galils in 5.56mm Cal?

Good question, south africa just reverse engineered the Galil and manufactured there own, it was a smart move and it held up for them well in their wars. No need to reverse a perfected design unless it's ergonomically or changing the caliber.

Even when building the Galil, the israelis took a proven AK/Valmet reciever and a good FNC folding stock, did a calibre change and improved the safety selector location. Why mess with something proven to work?

In Australia we tried building our own submarines instead of buying Type 212/214 German ones and look at the long, expensive mess we ended up with. Why can't people learn?

The Galil worked though, while it wasn't successful in Israel, it was successful in many other nations (South America colombia being the only licensed manufacturer in the world now, South Africa, Phillipines, Thailand, Estonia, Portugal, Mexico (yep used by security), Serbia (limited used), Italy (during Somalia war), and many others.

While it was based off the Valmet, and like you said, built off the original Valmet receivers, the Galil made enough changes to improve it over the Valmet. The caliber change to 5.56 was probably by pressure by US government.

Valmet made changes with the milled receiver rather than stamped.

Changes on galil were better ergonomics (improved handguard, improved pistol grip), thumb safety was added which wasn't featured on the Valmet Rk 62, charging handle was upturned for use with either hand (which was a huge plus), stock looks similar to the FAL paratrooper model but it's not, full steel. Looks like it was based off it though, other than that, the gas piston design is same as AK47's and esentially a improved Valmet.

Personally I think they should have changed the magazines to use AR15 mags, they make a adapter but I think it was a mistake to use the AK mag release (too slow)

[newman]

I know. That was my point. The Galil used an existing design that worked. IMI didn't try starting afresh. They did manage to make changes without compromising the good points of the basic design.

Point is, IMI has lot's of experience with weapons design, India doesn't.  They should have built a proven weapon under liscence.

[White Israelite]

I know. That was my point. The Galil used an existing design that worked. IMI didn't try starting afresh. They did manage to make changes without compromising the good points of the basic design.

Point is, IMI has lot's of experience with weapons design, India doesn't.  They should have built a proven weapon under liscence.

Oh I agree, I think India is building AK47's under license currently known as the AK-7.

India also has TAR-21 (Tavor Assault Rifle) from Israel, I don't know how many they have yet but it would probably be a better idea, why use national pride to build a weapon when it's costing lives and there are better options? Heck I think in America, we have that problem as well, I think that one of the reasons we stick with the m16 is national pride, but people don't realize how horrible of a design it was. Stoners design was fine but Armalite screwed it up. I think enough people have lost their lives to a inferior design like the M16. Hopefully India will learn too that the INSAS isn't worth it and decide to field their military with the Tavor's.

Actually come to think of it, India has a license to produce Tavor's. They have one variant known as the Zittara.

The Zittara multi purpose carbine was first displayed at the Defexpo 2006 Indian defence industry exhibition and is currently being produced by the Indian Ordnance Factory. It is based on Israel's highly successful IWI Micro Tavor assault rifle and is designed for use by special operations forces in close quarter battle. The weapon is designed to be compact, yet versatile and adaptable in the field and is capable of firing three different types of ammunition. It can be used as a carbine (5.56x30 ammunition), an assault rifle (5.56x45mm) and a sub-machinegun firing 9x19mm rounds. It has a claimed accurate range of 200 meters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Indian_Army

[newman]

It's called 'NIH' (not invented here) syndrome.

The 03 Springfield was the first case. In WW1, 75% of American soldiers were armed with the M1917 Enfield a.k.a. P17. The Springfield was selected as the 'official' rifle after the war due to national pride.

Ditto the M14

Ditto the M60.

The Galil didn't fail in Israel. Dirt-cheap, below cost (and inferior!) M16s from the US under the Military Credit scheme made it uncompetitive. The same is happening to Israels aircraft industries. Inferior US planes and other equipment at discounted prices make superior Israeli equipment uncompetitive.

Back to India,

Even the AR-180 Armalite with it's gas piston operation would have been better. Dirt cheap to make and a better weapon than the M16.

[White Israelite]

It's called 'NIH' (not invented here) syndrome.

The 03 Springfield was the first case. In WW1, 75% of American soldiers were armed with the M1917 Enfield a.k.a. P17. The Springfield was selected as the 'official' rifle after the war due to national pride.

Ditto the M14

Ditto the M60.

The Galil didn't fail in Israel. Dirt-cheap, below cost (and inferior!) M16s from the US under the Military Credit scheme made it uncompetitive. The same is happening to Israels aircraft industries. Inferior US planes and other equipment at discounted prices make superior Israeli equipment uncompetitive.

Back to India,

Even the AR-180 Armalite with it's gas piston operation would have been better. Dirt cheap to make and a better weapon than the M16.

I agree 100 percent, I think US has made some excellent stuff which should have never been replaced, and other things that well...are kept because of national pride. I still think the 1911 or the .45 was superior to the 9mm Beretta in many ways. Even though many pistols that surpass American ones now, they (most) are still based off American design (Browning).

Israel, I guess what I meant by the Galil failing is that it was replaced very quickly, some claim that the Galil was too heavy (of course because it is milled receiver) or that it had problems with receiver cracking (but Israelis abused their Galils like they were light machine guns shooting thousands and thousands of rounds full automatic). I think this was corrected later on.

South Africans used to get used to the weight of the Galil or the R4 there by doing running drills while holding their rifle in the air or holding it in awkward positions to get used to the weight. Of course going from the FAL to the Galil was probably a large difference as well.

Personally not sure why US stopped funding for Israels LAVI project, it was a really nice plane to my understanding.

I'm not positive about Israels Merkava tank, the think looks like a monster cosmetically and engine is located in the front, no idea how it compares to the M1 Abrams though. Israel sells everything on the tank but the tank it's self.

Not sure about Israels navy, They use SAAR 4.5 and 5 ships, recently SAAR ships are now built in US. They have top of the line subs though (Dolphin) which are supposed to be the most advanced in the world apparently from Germany.

We really need to replace the M16 in America, and I still think the Galil is a damn fine rifle. I'd love to have one in .308

[newman]

The weight argument about the Galil is bogus. A Galil AR (as opposed to the ARM) is still lighter than an M1 Garand, M14, FAL, FN 49 et al.

You're right about the abuse, too. The ARM varient was promoted as a combination LMG/AR. There is no such thing. It's one or the other. The ARM was therefor too light for an LMG and too heavy for an AR.

The Mekeva is a great tank considered the world's best. The engine up front is to provide frontal protection against missiles. I'd still take the diesel Merk' over the gas turbine M1. Israel sells the mk3 but not their current mk4. Merks are also cheap to produce without compromising quallity due the ingenious design. If not for muSSlim-nazi international bullying, Israel would sell alot more.

The M9 adoption is sad tale. The .45 (in military FMJ load) is unrivalled as a man-stopper. The 9x19mm in FMJ load is little more than an irritation to a charging fanatic. There were 2 reasons for the M9's adoption.

1/ NATO carped & whined about ammo compatability.

2/ Italy demanded a big military contract in return for the USA placing cruise missiles on Italian soil (that's why the Beretta was selected. According to rumour, the military preferred Ruger's P85).

[Serbian Cetnik (šumadinac)]

The M-21 Zastava, is partially AK and Galil. Two best armies in the world, at least Serbs learn their lessons.