Author Topic: this is for chaim on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered  (Read 1833 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
this is for chaim on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered
« on: February 25, 2008, 07:45:13 AM »
Fourth Division Nezikin

Mishna 5-7:

5. Hillel said: keep not aloof from the congregation and trust not in thyself until the day of they death, andjudge not thy fellow until though art come to his place, and say not of a thing which cannot be understood that it will be nderstood inteh end; and say not, When I haev leisure I will study: perchancethou wilt never have leisure.

6. He used to say: A brutish man dreads not sin, and an ignorant man cannot be saintly, and the shamefasat man cannot learn, and the impatient man cannot teach, and he that engages overmuch in trade cannot become wise; and where there are no men strive to be a man.

7. Moreover he saw a skull floating on the face of the water and he said unto it, 'Because thou dorwnest they drowned thee and at the last they that drowned thee shall be drowned.'   He used to say: The more flesh the more worms; the more possessions the more care; the more women the more witchcrafts; the more bondwomen the more lewdness; the more bondmen the more thieving; the more study of the Law the more life; the more schooling the more widom; the more counsel the more understanding; the more righteousness the mroe peace.  If a man has gained a good name he has gained for himself; if he has gained himself wodrs the Law has gained for himself life in the world to come.

If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Lubab

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1641
Re: this is for chaim on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2008, 12:22:01 PM »
What do you mean "on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered".


« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 09:15:18 PM by lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1641
Re: this is for chaim on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2008, 12:31:21 PM »
Basically Hillel saw this Guy "A"'s skull floating in the water. He knew that A was a person who drowned others in his lifetime. A was a bad guy. 


B came along one day and drowned A. But B didn't KNOW that A was such an evil person. B just drowned him for some reason that we don't know.

And Hillel is saying that Guy B will also be drowned for drowning guy A.

Now one could ask: but Guy A deserved it? Guy B effected justice.

That's true but G-d has many ways to punish Guy A and Guy B didn't need to be the messenger for that act. It would be different if Guy B knew who guy A was, but he didn't.

So it's saying: you got drowned because you drowned others. But the one who drowned you will get drowned too.

Some say that the Guy A was none other than Pharoh the king of Egypt who drowned so many the Jewish babies.
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: this is for chaim on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2008, 05:37:47 PM »
Basically Hillel saw this Guy "A"'s skull floating in the water. He knew that A was a person who drowned others in his lifetime. A was a bad guy. 


B came along one day and drowned A. But B didn't KNOW that A was such an evil person. B just drowned him for some reason that we don't know.

And Hillel is saying that Guy B will also be drowned for drowning guy A.

Now one could ask: but Guy A deserved it? Guy B effected justice.

That's true but G-d has many ways to punish Guy A and Guy B didn't need to be the messenger for that act. It would be different if Guy B knew who guy A was, but he didn't.

So it's saying: you got drowned because you drowned others. But the one who drowned you will get drowned too.

Some say that the Guy A was none other than Pharoh the king of Egypt who drowned so many the Jewish babies.

Chaim felt that the mishna sounded familiar but was afraid to answer it under the wrong context..I understand what you are saying with what Hillel said.  However, I wanted to know, in Chaim's view, how we can apply this principle in our own lives and in this movement?
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Lubab

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1641
Re: this is for chaim on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2008, 09:18:10 PM »
One way this applies to our movement is it's a winning argument again the Neturie Karta.

You can say: even if we agree with you that the Jews were wrong in taking over Israel and making a state, that does not give you the right to help the terrorists kill the Jews. Even if you think the Jews deserve that it's G-d's job to take care of it not yours. And if you step in to help kill them then you are deserving of that same punishment that you've inflicted on others even if the Jews deserved it.

In general, we need to know in what situations G-d wants us to act and what things He is supposed to handle and we should stay out of.




"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: this is for chaim on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2008, 10:22:02 PM »
One way this applies to our movement is it's a winning argument again the Neturie Karta.

You can say: even if we agree with you that the Jews were wrong in taking over Israel and making a state, that does not give you the right to help the terrorists kill the Jews. Even if you think the Jews deserve that it's G-d's job to take care of it not yours. And if you step in to help kill them then you are deserving of that same punishment that you've inflicted on others even if the Jews deserved it.

In general, we need to know in what situations G-d wants us to act and what things He is supposed to handle and we should stay out of.







Very good. 

However, what about when Jews need to exert justice on those who have been evil with capital punishment?
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Lubab

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1641
Re: this is for chaim on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2008, 10:30:30 PM »
One way this applies to our movement is it's a winning argument again the Neturie Karta.

You can say: even if we agree with you that the Jews were wrong in taking over Israel and making a state, that does not give you the right to help the terrorists kill the Jews. Even if you think the Jews deserve that it's G-d's job to take care of it not yours. And if you step in to help kill them then you are deserving of that same punishment that you've inflicted on others even if the Jews deserved it.

In general, we need to know in what situations G-d wants us to act and what things He is supposed to handle and we should stay out of.







Very good. 

However, what about when Jews need to exert justice on those who have been evil with capital punishment?

"those who have been evil with capital punishment" is too vague for me to respond.
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: this is for chaim on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2008, 11:14:51 PM »
One way this applies to our movement is it's a winning argument again the Neturie Karta.

You can say: even if we agree with you that the Jews were wrong in taking over Israel and making a state, that does not give you the right to help the terrorists kill the Jews. Even if you think the Jews deserve that it's G-d's job to take care of it not yours. And if you step in to help kill them then you are deserving of that same punishment that you've inflicted on others even if the Jews deserved it.

In general, we need to know in what situations G-d wants us to act and what things He is supposed to handle and we should stay out of.







Very good. 

However, what about when Jews need to exert justice on those who have been evil with capital punishment?

"those who have been evil with capital punishment" is too vague for me to respond.

1. Arab Muslim murderers (cold blooded)
2. Accidental murder
3. Jewish murderer (cold blooded)
4. Brutal Rape
5. Mugging old ladies and old men
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Lubab

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1641
Re: this is for chaim on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2008, 11:25:23 PM »
One way this applies to our movement is it's a winning argument again the Neturie Karta.

You can say: even if we agree with you that the Jews were wrong in taking over Israel and making a state, that does not give you the right to help the terrorists kill the Jews. Even if you think the Jews deserve that it's G-d's job to take care of it not yours. And if you step in to help kill them then you are deserving of that same punishment that you've inflicted on others even if the Jews deserved it.

In general, we need to know in what situations G-d wants us to act and what things He is supposed to handle and we should stay out of.







Very good. 

However, what about when Jews need to exert justice on those who have been evil with capital punishment?

"those who have been evil with capital punishment" is too vague for me to respond.

1. Arab Muslim murderers (cold blooded)
2. Accidental murder
3. Jewish murderer (cold blooded)
4. Brutal Rape
5. Mugging old ladies and old men


The Torah has a response for each one of these scenarios. We stick with that and you're okay. You won't be in violation of that mishna. That mishna is talking about a punishment meted out by someone who did not have the Torah authority to do it.

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: this is for chaim on the ask jtf that couldn't be answered
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2008, 11:41:39 PM »
One way this applies to our movement is it's a winning argument again the Neturie Karta.

You can say: even if we agree with you that the Jews were wrong in taking over Israel and making a state, that does not give you the right to help the terrorists kill the Jews. Even if you think the Jews deserve that it's G-d's job to take care of it not yours. And if you step in to help kill them then you are deserving of that same punishment that you've inflicted on others even if the Jews deserved it.

In general, we need to know in what situations G-d wants us to act and what things He is supposed to handle and we should stay out of.







Very good. 

However, what about when Jews need to exert justice on those who have been evil with capital punishment?

"those who have been evil with capital punishment" is too vague for me to respond.

1. Arab Muslim murderers (cold blooded)
2. Accidental murder
3. Jewish murderer (cold blooded)
4. Brutal Rape
5. Mugging old ladies and old men


The Torah has a response for each one of these scenarios. We stick with that and you're okay. You won't be in violation of that mishna. That mishna is talking about a punishment meted out by someone who did not have the Torah authority to do it.



Ok, i understand.

Why was this mishna included with the rest of the them? In other words, how is this particular mishna related, in context, with what Rabbi hillel felt?

It's amazing poetry...so there has to be a connected story behind it.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein