how many Jews are in the forum?

[Rubystars]

Dont' want to start an argument, but i have always wondered why reform and conservative rabbis don't count as far as conversions.  According to whom and what was this decided?

It sort of makes sense that the Orthodox wouldn't accept converts by non-Orthodox Rabbis. I'm sure that reform Jews accept converts by reform Rabbis and Conservative Jews would accept converts by Conservative Rabbis though.

Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?

[Madeline]

I'm a Jew.

[Dr. Dan]

Dont' want to start an argument, but i have always wondered why reform and conservative rabbis don't count as far as conversions.  According to whom and what was this decided?

It sort of makes sense that the Orthodox wouldn't accept converts by non-Orthodox Rabbis. I'm sure that reform Jews accept converts by reform Rabbis and Conservative Jews would accept converts by Conservative Rabbis though.

Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?

I mean, I would hope that any person who truly converts to Judaism practices the religion completely and properly with a full heart.  I would assume that if it were an Orthodox rabbi that did it, he/she is more likely to do that than a non-orthodox rabbi.  The test shouldn't be easier just becuase it came from a reform or conservative one.

[q_q_]

The reform movement is not judaism and a reform minister is not a rabbi.

A reform "rabbi" has as much power to convert somebody to judaism as the pope. And if the pope called himself "rabbi" it would not give him any more power.

They do not believe the tenets of (orthodox) judaism. 
Simple.

Look.. this is pathetic..


For jews here that are already familiar with the issue, and liberally religious jews must be by now.
there are really only 2 possibilities here..
Either

a)you don`t get the logic.  (unlikely)
b)you have some emotional block that prevents you from reasoning.

I cannot help you with `b`.  And I can`t really help much further with `a`.

[q_q_]

Dont' want to start an argument, but i have always wondered why reform and conservative rabbis don't count as far as conversions.  According to whom and what was this decided?

It sort of makes sense that the Orthodox wouldn't accept converts by non-Orthodox Rabbis. I'm sure that reform Jews accept converts by reform Rabbis and Conservative Jews would accept converts by Conservative Rabbis though.

Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?

as far as I know, yes, they all accept orthodox. Since that is the strictest one. The other groups just lessen standards (and beliefs)..

The other groups change their rules all the time. I don`t bother to check. Why should anybody bother to check?  There are less depressing forms of amusement.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?

Even within Orthodox not all accept others conversions. I for one have been appauled about some of the things I heard from some Rabbi (and thats from my community). The Syrians are the best and strictest, they dont accept any conversions, so the whole mess of fake conversions because of marriage doesn't take place.

[Dr. Dan]

Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?

Even within Orthodox not all accept others conversions. I for one have been appauled about some of the things I heard from some Rabbi (and thats from my community). The Syrians are the best and strictest, they dont accept any conversions, so the whole mess of fake conversions because of marriage doesn't take place.

syrian jews don't accept any converts?

[nikmatdam]

Re: how many Jews are in the forum?

you are all missing the point here... the torah of G-d says that there is a three step process to conversion (4 for a man)... first acceptance of all the mitzvot... pledging to be observant... then brit milah by a kosher mohel if a male convert... then mikvah and in the time of the temple a sacrifice to complete the transformation... these are the rules and regs. stipulated by G-d not man on who is a converted jew and whether or not their goyish soul was removed and a jewish one inserted in the person's body...

look at it it like the rules for a microwave oven... they state plug in the wall... push the buttons to the right setting... close the door and your food will cook... if you arbitrarily decide either not to plug it in or not to push the buttons the food will never cook no matter how badly you want it to... either plug it in the wall or your pressing of the buttons is meaningless... or if plugged in until you select a setting and turn on the machine... nothing will get done...

this to a tee is a conservative and a reform conversion... they decide mikvah is not required or accepting to become observant or milah etc. and then they have the audacity to demand of G-d that He come down and still change that soul from gentile to jewish... they are sick!!!! diseased and twisted rabbis and people in the leadership of these movements... misleading jews and gentiles alike on purpose... to destroy torah judaism... not to reform it or conserve it... they hate it... and intentionally mess with our religion, history and heritage... nik. out...

[Zionist Revolutionary]

Completely off topic I'm sure...but I'm Jewish

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?

Even within Orthodox not all accept others conversions. I for one have been appauled about some of the things I heard from some Rabbi (and thats from my community). The Syrians are the best and strictest, they dont accept any conversions, so the whole mess of fake conversions because of marriage doesn't take place.

syrian jews don't accept any converts?

No, not in the sense of marriage at least. I believe they say that one has to prove that they are Jewish by at least 3 generations in order to be accepted. They are strict and I heard of only 1 case where they allowed it because Rav Ovadia Yosef personally forced it upon them to accept this couple where their was a Syrian guy and this truly rightious convert (or daughter of converts) who has converted even before they meet. I respect that and it truly saved their community from assimilation (even thought their are allways a few rotten apples- very very few).

[Dr. Dan]

Re: how many Jews are in the forum?

you are all missing the point here... the torah of G-d says that there is a three step process to conversion (4 for a man)... first acceptance of all the mitzvot... pledging to be observant... then brit milah by a kosher mohel if a male convert... then mikvah and in the time of the temple a sacrifice to complete the transformation... these are the rules and regs. stipulated by G-d not man on who is a converted jew and whether or not their goyish soul was removed and a jewish one inserted in the person's body...

look at it it like the rules for a microwave oven... they state plug in the wall... push the buttons to the right setting... close the door and your food will cook... if you arbitrarily decide either not to plug it in or not to push the buttons the food will never cook no matter how badly you want it to... either plug it in the wall or your pressing of the buttons is meaningless... or if plugged in until you select a setting and turn on the machine... nothing will get done...

this to a tee is a conservative and a reform conversion... they decide mikvah is not required or accepting to become observant or milah etc. and then they have the audacity to demand of G-d that He come down and still change that soul from gentile to jewish... they are sick!!!! diseased and twisted rabbis and people in the leadership of these movements... misleading jews and gentiles alike on purpose... to destroy torah judaism... not to reform it or conserve it... they hate it... and intentionally mess with our religion, history and heritage... nik. out...

1. much easier to use a microwave oven then convert a non Jew into a Torah abiding Jew.
2. where did you read that mikvah was not required etc etc by a conservative conversion?  This is news to me.
3. Since there is no Temple yet (and hopefully soon) then no convert can really do a sacrifice, so therefore non Jews who convert really never got converted because they never sacrificed.

[Dr. Dan]

Does everyone accept Orthodox converts, or just the Orthodox?

Even within Orthodox not all accept others conversions. I for one have been appauled about some of the things I heard from some Rabbi (and thats from my community). The Syrians are the best and strictest, they dont accept any conversions, so the whole mess of fake conversions because of marriage doesn't take place.

syrian jews don't accept any converts?

No, not in the sense of marriage at least. I believe they say that one has to prove that they are Jewish by at least 3 generations in order to be accepted. They are strict and I heard of only 1 case where they allowed it because Rav Ovadia Yosef personally forced it upon them to accept this couple where their was a Syrian guy and this truly rightious convert (or daughter of converts) who has converted even before they meet. I respect that and it truly saved their community from assimilation (even thought their are allways a few rotten apples- very very few).

Yeh syrian jews are hard to marry if you aren't syrian yourself. 
The same goes with Mashadi Jews.

[q_q_]

1. much easier to use a microwave oven then convert a non Jew into a Torah abiding Jew.
2. where did you read that mikvah was not required etc etc by a conservative conversion?  This is news to me.
3. Since there is no Temple yet (and hopefully soon) then no convert can really do a sacrifice, so therefore non Jews who convert really never got converted because they never sacrificed.

So since there is no Temple yet (also hopefully soon it will be rebuilt) then baal teshuvas can't really be BTs?

No, it is nonsense. pay no attention to whoever said that.. whether it was dr dan (who does not seem to be orthodox).  Or tzvi.  Probably dr dan said it..

So far neither of them are even quoting right anyway.

And Converts are given total respect.. even moreso than those born jewish..  There is a famous letter written by a convert to the RAMBAM, where the convert wrote of how he was looked down upon. The RAMBAM wrote back about how great the guy was, and saying something along the lines of , and this is a very vague recollection.  "there are 36 places in the talmud where it talks of respecting the convert. Show this to the jews / rabbis in your area".


A convert is just as jewish as anybody born jewish.

What about other things people can do now in the mean time until we get the Temple back. I mention this because the first things christians say when they try to convert Jews, is "how are your sins forgiven without a Temple to do sacrifices?" Naturally, there are other things Jews can do in the mean time until the Temple is back.

We do have yom kippur
Also, I do not have the tenach quotes to hand, but later in the nach, after the temple was destroyed, it says that prayer replaced sacrifices

And is there really a "conversion" to Judaism? I mean in the sense that people convert to Christianity or more of a recognition to the Jewish community. I do agree with the very strict guidelines that Orthodox use for those very few gentiles who are really honesty going through gerut. And when one does finish gerut, then born Jews are not supposed to even talk to them about the time they were not Jewish etc..etc..
I lost track of what I was saying, I hope it overall makes sense.
But let us not forget that the great Rabbi Akiva was descended from "converts".

The conversion is -not- in the same sense as christianity.. Since now after converting the person is a jew, and obligated by jewish law.  Whereas beforehand, they were not obligated.   

A convert is 100% jewish, and I think it is even a sin to bring up about the fact that they converted.. Since it embarasses them.. A jew is a jew. 

As mentioned. The rule.   Mother is jewish, or converted.

[q_q_]

(Shemos 22:20) "You shall not do injustice or oppress a convert …"

is that a Ger(stranger).  As far as the plain meaning of the text is concerned.

And the talmud says a convert.  or associates not oppressing a convert with that verse

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What in the world?

A baal teshuvah is a person born a Jew who doesnt keep mitzvot or only partially and then later becomes a full fledged Torah observant Jew.  ie he has done teshuva, he has returned back to the path of Judaism.

A convert is a person who is born a NONJEW and then converts to Judaism through Orthodox method according to halacha.  He has now become a Jew with a Jewish soul.

Each is fully Jewish and doesn't require a Temple to gain status as such.

[q_q_]

here are some more

"You shall love the convert, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 10:19

"Do not hurt the feelings of a convert or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Shemot (Exodus) 22:20

"Do not oppress a convert, you know how it feels to be a stranger because you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Shemot (Exodus) 23:9

"When a convert comes to live in your land, do not hurt his feelings. The convert should be to you exactly like a born Jew and you shall love him like yourself, for you were strangers in Egypt - I am HaShem, your G-d."
VaYikra (Leviticus) 19:33-34

That plain text says GER

And that does not necessarily mean a convert

Look. Was King David a convert? (he was not)

Psalm 39:12 Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger(GER) with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were.

Were jews CONVERTS TO JUDAISM (while enslaved) in the land of egypt?

that was a verse you quoted that used the word Ger.
Exodus 22:20
"The GER, Do not oppress , do not mistreat him. For you were GERIM(plural of GER) in the land of egypt"

GER means stranger. visitor.

Do not confuse what the talmud says. With the meaning of the plain text.

[aHome4Jews]

I am openly Jewish and see no reason why not to be.

[q_q_]

<snip>
interesting i dint know that, but Ruth, King Davids grandmother was a convert and also the grandparents or the parents of Rabbi Akiva were converts

I don't recall if Ruth was King David's grandmother or great grandmother. But that is not the point.   King David was NOT A CONVERT.  And the verse refers to him as a Ger.

My point is the word GER doesn't mean a convert or "convert to judaism".

I had added this to my post.. I will include it here.

Exodus 22:20
"The GER, Do not oppress , do not mistreat him. For you were GERIM(plural of GER) in the land of egypt"

GER means stranger. visitor.

Do not confuse what the talmud says. With the meaning of the plain text.

You actually included that verse, but translated the word GER differently at each occurrence.  Once as Convert, and GERim(plural of ger), as strangers.
Strangers is correct. going on plain meaning. As shown.

[horselady]

I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...

people like him are not real Jews

They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.

The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish

I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...

people like him are not real Jews

They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.

The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish

I don't consider liberal Jews to be real Jews.

[nikmatdam]

the rabbis decreed and Hashem therefore having given them authority to be partners with Him on jewish law... they decided the conversion would work and the sacrifice would be held in abeiance until the temple is re-built and then the ger will bring it... meanwhile they would be full jews and G-d agreed to change their souls... but all the other details must be adhered to... and while conserv. make their converts go to mikvah it doesn't count... because their rabbis are not real rabbis because they deny the validity of the sinai as a Divine manifestation and they break or agree to allow jews to break shabat, kashrut and now gay marriage etc, etc, etc... so their beit din is not a valid court which is required to be present (in the anteroom for women converts) while the mikvah lady witnesses the woman's tevilah and gives testimony on its complete and proper fulfillment right afterward... i've been on one of those courts myself once here in l.a... nik. out...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

<snip>
interesting i dint know that, but Ruth, King Davids grandmother was a convert and also the grandparents or the parents of Rabbi Akiva were converts

I don't recall if Ruth was King David's grandmother or great grandmother. But that is not the point.   King David was NOT A CONVERT.  And the verse refers to him as a Ger.

My point is the word GER doesn't mean a convert or "convert to judaism".

I had added this to my post.. I will include it here.

Exodus 22:20
"The GER, Do not oppress , do not mistreat him. For you were GERIM(plural of GER) in the land of egypt"

GER means stranger. visitor.

Do not confuse what the talmud says. With the meaning of the plain text.

You actually included that verse, but translated the word GER differently at each occurrence.  Once as Convert, and GERim(plural of ger), as strangers.
Strangers is correct. going on plain meaning. As shown.

But you're still supposed to apply this to converts too according to Talmud or no?  I mean if we can't mistreat 'strangers' since we were once strangers ourselves, than certainly we couldn't mistreat a fellow Jew (converts included).

[q_q_]

<snip>
interesting i dint know that, but Ruth, King Davids grandmother was a convert and also the grandparents or the parents of Rabbi Akiva were converts

I don't recall if Ruth was King David's grandmother or great grandmother. But that is not the point.   King David was NOT A CONVERT.  And the verse refers to him as a Ger.

My point is the word GER doesn't mean a convert or "convert to judaism".

I had added this to my post.. I will include it here.

Exodus 22:20
"The GER, Do not oppress , do not mistreat him. For you were GERIM(plural of GER) in the land of egypt"

GER means stranger. visitor.

Do not confuse what the talmud says. With the meaning of the plain text.

You actually included that verse, but translated the word GER differently at each occurrence.  Once as Convert, and GERim(plural of ger), as strangers.
Strangers is correct. going on plain meaning. As shown.

But you're still supposed to apply this to converts too according to Talmud or no?  I mean if we can't mistreat 'strangers' since we were once strangers ourselves, than certainly we couldn't mistreat a fellow Jew (converts included).

yes.. there is no question that we must not oppress the convert.. That is a law or teaching in the talmud. 

What the talmud does sometimes is it gives a law or teaching, and uses a pasuk(verse - from tenach) as an analogy.  Sometimes the law / teaching is derived from a verse. Other times it is just using a verse or passage in tenach as an analogy

Infact, don't quote me on it , but I think all our laws are sourced in the oral torah. We just find them all mentioned, hinted at, stated implicitly or stated explicitly , in the written torah.  Infact, I think in an online audio rav kahane gave to YU, he once said - while critiquing a supposedly scholarly article - that we don't pasken from tenach.


Also, you have to think what the plain text (speaking of not oppressing strangers/visitors to your land) means when it says oppress.  I guess it refers to real oppression. Not enslaving them.. like we were oppressed in egypt.

Being a stranger does imply, a visitor. Common sense would say that means not having a say in how the land is run.  Not voting.  Not your land..  Not a citizen.  Being a stranger is not considered "oppression".  You can have a stranger that is not oppressed.

I think the talmud actually says to love the convert.. That is in addition to the commandment of loving your neighbour.   So certainly it would be true that one does not oppress the convert!

[JTFFan]

200 billion!

I wish there were 200 billion Kahanist Jews

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...

people like him are not real Jews

They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.

The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish

I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...

people like him are not real Jews

They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.

The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish

I don't consider liberal Jews to be real Jews.

Why Jews are Jews regardless. As long as they are not self haters.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

yes.. there is no question that we must not oppress the convert.. That is a law or teaching in the talmud. 

What the talmud does sometimes is it gives a law or teaching, and uses a pasuk(verse - from tenach) as an analogy.  Sometimes the law / teaching is derived from a verse. Other times it is just using a verse or passage in tenach as an analogy

Infact, don't quote me on it , but I think all our laws are sourced in the oral torah. We just find them all mentioned, hinted at, stated implicitly or stated explicitly , in the written torah.  Infact, I think in an online audio rav kahane gave to YU, he once said - while critiquing a supposedly scholarly article - that we don't pasken from tenach.


Also, you have to think what the plain text (speaking of not oppressing strangers/visitors to your land) means when it says oppress.  I guess it refers to real oppression. Not enslaving them.. like we were oppressed in egypt.

Being a stranger does imply, a visitor. Common sense would say that means not having a say in how the land is run.  Not voting.  Not your land..  Not a citizen.  Being a stranger is not considered "oppression".  You can have a stranger that is not oppressed.

I think the talmud actually says to love the convert.. That is in addition to the commandment of loving your neighbour.   So certainly it would be true that one does not oppress the convert!

Interesting, thank you.