Ramchal on the study of Kabbalah

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Ramchal on the study of Kabbalah
   

Quotes from Igrot Ramchal 19
Let us not forget that this is the same Ramchal that wrote Miselas Yesharim

-He satisfies his lofty soul only with the grass of the field, which is the Pshat level of Torah. He makes his life bitter with Kal Vechomer and Gezarah Shavah, on which it is written "they made their life miserable with hard work".

-Is this, [learning only Pshat] good in the eyes of G-D?

-What pleasure does G-D have in all the big calculations and many conclusions, while there is not one person who strengthens himself to stand in the mysteries of G-D and to reveal the light of his Glory.

-Who ever has a sharp mind should analyze at the most for only an hour or two in Halacha. Whoever is not sharp should not study it at all, rather he should spend his time with Midrashim and Kabbalah, the inside of the Torah.

-Why would one leave the main learning [Kabbalah] and go to the side issues [Pshat].

-A person does not have in the next world only what he brought into his mind in this world. Who ever knows the inside of Torah will enjoy the inner light. Who ever does not, will not get to enjoy it at all.

-The abomination occurring in our times, that most of the wise men of Yisroel have already strayed far from the truth and the sweet light, the glory of G-D our master. They go after calculations of nothingness. They lean after power and honor.

Quotes from Yarim Moshe (page 221)

-The Ari was very justified when he said the main occupation of a man should only be in the mysteries of the Torah.

-Who ever does not have a sharp mind should spend his day learning Kabbalah and not Pshat. This is the true way and it definitely pleases G-D. Even though this is not accepted by most rabbis, there is no way other then this.

-In the Zohar Shir Hasherim it says "Those who mastered only Pshat, after they die they are removed from all upper realms."

 

[jdl4ever]

I very very strongly disagree and think that he doesn't make any sense whatsoever.  I believe truth is the exact opposite of what he writes.  P'shat is the core of the Torah and what one should spent the most time studying.  The commentaries should be studied only after one has mastered the Psat.  And one with a weak mind should spend more time studying the Pshat and not even go into Kabbalah at all since it will make him crazy.  Many Beit Medrish Yeshiva Student's I've seen are completely screwed up inside their heads since they never learn Psat or even went over Nach one time even.  They just study Talmud all the time, and completely don't have any clue what's going on.  Those who take this advise are not correct in my opinion, and are setting themselves up to pervert the Torah.

[q_q_]

funnily enough, to understand the ramchal properly, requires a mind like a razor blade

The logic master loves the ramchal, and has a 40 part lectures series on the RAMCHAL`s major philosophical work  "Derech HaShem - The way of G-d"
http://www.dovidgottlieb.com/Rabbi_Gottlieb_Tapes.html

[q_q_]

In order to believe in Christian doctrines, someone must completely ignore logic and just depend on the "Holy Spirit" to enlighten them with a special knowledge as to why Torah says something it really doesn't say--and end up practicing idolatry.

In order to believe in Hasidism/Kabbalah, someone must completely ignore logic and depend on the fact that kabbalist proponent rabbis are just so dog gone smart that they somehow have a special knowledge as to why Jews should believe things that are contrary to what the Torah says--and end up practicing idolatry.

Same thing, different package.

You are completely ignorant.

There is nothing illogical in the idea that G-d has told us of a mystical dimension to the universe.  And that we have a tradition on these matters. And that some rabbis have had heavenly teachers that have taught them these things.

Judaism is full of rituals, that only have any meaning if there is a mystical realm that these rituals impact.

No kabbalists are idolators, unless it is correct that some small group of lubavitchers believe their dead rabbi is G-d. And they are a tiny number that only existed since around 1990! 

Most great rabbis .. The RAMBAN, the vilna gaon, the arizal , Rabbi Yosef Kairo, almost all of them, believe in kabbalah, and many of them have been great kabbalists.

Now.. Not all rabbis have been. Some following the RAMBAM very strictly or those trying to go back to just what we have in the talmud.. they may reject it. Or any new mysticism or anything new since the talmud.  That's fine..

They may be right , Kabbalah may be wrong.  But an large % of great rabbis have been master kabbalists, and it is certainly not idolatry.

Why don't you entertain us and tell us what aspect you think is idolatry?

[jdl4ever]

In order to believe in Christian doctrines, someone must completely ignore logic and just depend on the "Holy Spirit" to enlighten them with a special knowledge as to why Torah says something it really doesn't say--and end up practicing idolatry.

In order to believe in Hasidism/Kabbalah, someone must completely ignore logic and depend on the fact that kabbalist proponent rabbis are just so dog gone smart that they somehow have a special knowledge as to why Jews should believe things that are contrary to what the Torah says--and end up practicing idolatry.

Same thing, different package.

There is a lot of truth in what you are writing about.  But I'm not going to talk about it publicly.  Although you are a bit too negative.  Not all Kabbalah is illogical and there is a lot of good things about Chassidim. 

[jdl4ever]

DanBenNoah, Yacov is right.  Don't post things that divide Jews.  The moderator of the forum is a Lubovitcher Rabbi and he won't take kindly to your remarks.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Dont try to link opposition to hassidism as being a fact that the Kabbalah is not authentic (G-d forbid). Those who opposed Hasidim did not oppose it because of Kabbalah, or its teachings including reincarnation, demons, angels, etc, because the same Mitnagdim and their great leader the Vilna Gaon himself wrote books about these subjects.
 Anyway who are the ones who are opposed to Kabbalah that we see? Only you - someone who isn't Jewish and doesn't doesn't know Judasim or the other very few, who might learn a little on Judasim but are not linked to Judasim threw a solid tradition and connection to a Rav. Maybe not everyone is as much connected to Kabbalah as others, but Kabbalah is defintly accepted by the vast majority if not all of the Jewish world that is accepted.
 + you only speak from complete ignorance of real Kabbalah and its teaching, if you would know the truth about it,(even in the little that is revealed here and their to us on a low level) you would be in awe of it, and would have a closer relationship with G-d.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

What are you talking about? Their is authentic Kabbalah and Torah and their is not authentic Kabbalah and Torah. For example Jews believe in the Tannach, but other people also believe in the Tannach and make their own interpretations, just because their is the wrong way of learning doesn't make the Tannach false (G-d forbid). Also with Kabbalah, their is the false (motivated by making $) and their is the authentic Kabbalah that was studied and is studied by the Hachamim of the nation and brought down in the Holy Writings and some Shiurim.
 I dont care if you personally accept it or not, but please dont speak from ignorance and trash something that is Judaism, it is rather offensive.
+ Hassidim is different then Kabbalah. If one doesn't want to accept Hassidim, okay. But Kabbalah isn't only among Hassidim, it is part of almost all of Jewish tradition (expecially more soo amoung Sefardim).

[q_q_]

In order to believe in Christian doctrines, someone must completely ignore logic and just depend on the "Holy Spirit" to enlighten them with a special knowledge as to why Torah says something it really doesn't say--and end up practicing idolatry.

In order to believe in Hasidism/Kabbalah, someone must completely ignore logic and depend on the fact that kabbalist proponent rabbis are just so dog gone smart that they somehow have a special knowledge as to why Jews should believe things that are contrary to what the Torah says--and end up practicing idolatry.

Same thing, different package.

You are completely ignorant.

There is nothing illogical in the idea that G-d has told us of a mystical dimension to the universe.  And that we have a tradition on these matters. And that some rabbis have had heavenly teachers that have taught them these things.

Judaism is full of rituals, that only have any meaning if there is a mystical realm that these rituals impact.

No kabbalists are idolators, unless it is correct that some small group of lubavitchers believe their dead rabbi is G-d. And they are a tiny number that only existed since around 1990! 

Most great rabbis .. The RAMBAN, the vilna gaon, the arizal , Rabbi Yosef Kairo, almost all of them, believe in kabbalah, and many of them have been great kabbalists.

Now.. Not all rabbis have been. Some following the RAMBAM very strictly or those trying to go back to just what we have in the talmud.. they may reject it. Or any new mysticism or anything new since the talmud.  That's fine..

They may be right , Kabbalah may be wrong.  But an large % of great rabbis have been master kabbalists, and it is certainly not idolatry.

Why don't you entertain us and tell us what aspect you think is idolatry?

See, this is what I'm talking about.  Since Hasidism and kabbalah have supposedly been the practice of some "great" rabbis, who were supposedly smart, I'm "ignorant" because I criticize it.  That's similar to a Christian regarding Jews who don't accept Jesus as "hard-hearted" or "resisting the Holy Spirit".  These are both ideologies that require some special "inner knowledge" of sorts in order to justify the doctrines that are contradicted by the plain meaning of the Torah.  Hasidism was a late innovation within Judaism, and it was opposed when it first began by the Mitnagdim.  There was no divine revelation of Hasidism/kabbalah, it was just extrapolated back by its inventors kind of like Mormons extrapolate some of their scriptures back to Avraham.  And the reason it is idolatry is for the same reason that other religions who teach reincarnation, astrology, pantheism, etc. are idolatry.  It also seems to attract women in a witchcraft-esque way.

you are confusing things here.

Kabbalah existed long before Chassidut. Chassidut was 1700s.
(so forget chassidism, and your attack on that is clearly getting people upset anyhow.. unnecessarily. Since you are meant to be opposing kabbalah , not just one later kabbalistic movement)

RAMBAN was a kabbalist, and lived in the 1200s.   Long before Chassidut.

What you also have to realise, is the concept of weight..

Certainly, revelation of kabbalah ... where the claim is that a rabbi has had a heavenly teacher, or a small number of rabbis have learnt a tradition from their rabbi, e.t.c.

It is nowhere near as strong as the revelation of the Torah at sinai, which was to the whole nation of Israel

The thing with other religions with their one man revelations, that could be made up. contradict the torah. So we know they are wrong.

Judaism does not base its truth on the revelation of kabbalah. You can be skeptical, but it is not idolatry.

And your argument was ridiculous.  Just because an idolatrous religion teaches X , and kabbalah teaches X, does not make kabbalah idolatrous.  In the same way that hinduism(which is idolatrous) teaches belief in the soul, and judaism does. But that does not make judaism idolatrous.

[q_q_]

Dont try to link opposition to hassidism as being a fact that the Kabbalah is not authentic (G-d forbid). Those who opposed Hasidim did not oppose it because of Kabbalah, or its teachings including reincarnation, demons, angels, etc, because the same Mitnagdim and their great leader the Vilna Gaon himself wrote books about these subjects.
 Anyway who are the ones who are opposed to Kabbalah that we see? Only you - someone who isn't Jewish and doesn't doesn't know Judasim or the other very few, who might learn a little on Judasim but are not linked to Judasim threw a solid tradition and connection to a Rav. Maybe not everyone is as much connected to Kabbalah as others, but Kabbalah is defintly accepted by the vast majority if not all of the Jewish world that is accepted.
 + you only speak from complete ignorance of real Kabbalah and its teaching, if you would know the truth about it,(even in the little that is revealed here and their to us on a low level) you would be in awe of it, and would have a closer relationship with G-d.

You speak of "real" kabbalah.  Yet apparently no one here can deliver any respectable insight on kabbalah, mysticism or anything similar--when they try, it is virtually indistinguishable from the Hollywood kabbalah or pagan ideology.  There hasn't been a single thing of value expounded here on Hasidism, only lip service to the fact that "real" kabbalah is the cat's pajamas and we must all stand in awe of this "real" kabbalah.  I'm sorry, but I just don't stand in awe of Hitler being reincarnated and taking part in the afterlife.

And for every justification of Hasidic principles, there are also opinions that state the opposite--Newton's law of apologetics.

You haven't the foggiest idea what you are on about.

There are classic kabbalistic texts.. 

But any moron can identify the difference between that and the hollywood "kabbalah center".

Where do you get this nonsense about Hitler getting reincarnated in the afterlife.. Not from any text. With that attitude you have, you would be too prejudice illogical and uneducated to delve into anything.

Don't stand in awe of it.  Stop looking at it.   Just have some respect.. 

Anyhow,
even in the talmud there are two topics (maaseh merkava and maaseh beraishit) that are mystical were not revealed to the masses. And only passed down from great sage to great sage.. I would think that tradition is almost certainly lost by now..

So now with your faulty arguments, would you stand in awe of that and of the great rabbis that know it and get all jealous that you cannot know it.. And then conclude that it is all a load of rubbish.. because it is just too much for you to bear, that you are not privvy to intricate details of the secrets of the universe.  Don't stare in awe. Look away.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

See, this is what I'm talking about.  Since Hasidism and kabbalah have supposedly been the practice of some "great" rabbis, who were supposedly smart, I'm "ignorant" because I criticize it.  That's similar to a Christian regarding Jews who don't accept Jesus as "hard-hearted" or "resisting the Holy Spirit".  These are both ideologies that require some special "inner knowledge" of sorts in order to justify the doctrines that are contradicted by the plain meaning of the Torah.  Hasidism was a late innovation within Judaism, and it was opposed when it first began by the Mitnagdim.  There was no divine revelation of Hasidism/kabbalah, it was just extrapolated back by its inventors kind of like Mormons extrapolate some of their scriptures back to Avraham.  And the reason it is idolatry is for the same reason that other religions who teach reincarnation, astrology, pantheism, etc. are idolatry.  It also seems to attract women in a witchcraft-esque way.

This post shows that you are terribly misinformed.  The leader of the misnagdim, the Vilna Gaon, delved deeply into Kabbalah.  The term itself means there are deeper secrets held within the Divine text known as Torah that go beyond the simple meaning.  It doesn't require things to be illogical as in they 'don't make sense.'  Mystical and illogical are not synonyms.  Mystical is a different way of looking at things.  And you are characterizing incorrectly when you say that kabalah, the inner secrets or mystical interpretations of Torah, contradict the simple meaning.  This is not true or else none of them would have ever been accepted by any self-respecting rabbi.  There was an Oral Torah given at Mt. Sinai in addition to the written Torah.  Many mitzvot would be impossible to do or know how to do without this tradition from the Oral Torah.  Included in the Oral Torah are some kabbalistic insights that were passed on, as well as 13 principles of exegesis to delve into the deep secrets of the Torah and find more meaning.  Implicit in Judaism is the needed participation of the rabbis over the generations to refine our Torah knowledge (holy nation, nation of priests) and make rulings (see Rambam), to strive for truth in every era and come to codified traditions where they don't already exist or where there is machlokes.  You seem to lump this in with kabbalah as well, which is even more terribly mistaken.

Your comparison to Christianity has no bearing on this discussion, Judaism, or any discussion of kaballah or any other aspect of  Jewish tradition.  We don't base our religion on "what is wrong with _____ religion."