Herzl and the Zionists (Yimach Shemo)

[MarZutra]

good question- would you support some 1 who says hes against arabs , and even calls for bombing arabs while wants to and has waged a cultural war against Judaism? or at least says hes anti-Haredi?

Personally, I would for the purpose of once the Arabs are gone, he'd be next.  Use the Communist philosophy against him: "Ends justifies the means"....

Sorry, I just have to add one thing to my previous statement about the Rothschilds, since there are two sides to every story.  On Page 38 of Rabbi Marvin Antelman's "To Eliminate the Opiate" places a very strong arguement against the Jacob/James deRothschild as professed by Frederick Morton's biography "The Rothschilds, in that in 1862 Jacob deRothschild, via the Schiffs , was introduced and embraced a man by the name of Abraham Geiger; Bundist and founder of the cult of "Reform Judaism".  The Rothschild's authorized bio by Frederick Morton places the picture as the Rothschilds being committed Orthodox Jews for the most part but Antelman's research displays them on a VERY different light.  Geiger, the Chief "Rabbi" of Berlin gave eulogy on Nov 29, 1869 for the death of Jacob deRothschild combining purely Socialistic manipulations to Jewish prayers, actual sermon given Pg. 38.  Geiger went to the Rothschilds for additional funding, with a man named Berthold Auerbach(committed Marxist Revolutionary and Bund Committee member to the Reform movement) to finance the Reform "Judaism" movement.  The Communist theory of "Divide and conquer" is very logical and apperent for the reasoning of and for the birth of Reform "Judaism" to "Eliminate the Opiate".

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

so you would support Tommy Lapid  . any 1 else comments please.

[kahaneloyalist]

I believe it is a mistake to support anyone who doesnt accept the Torah, no matter how good they sound. Both Halachicaly and from a practical perspective of every non-religious "right-winger" Begin, Netanyahu, Sharon. Have all turned out to be terrible PM's.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Non-religious Traditional Jews who DO accept The Torah are okay. Likud are not Traditional Jews.

Yea but then they would just be a weakling, becuase if you accept the Torah, but dont completly follow it, then your a weakling in some way or another, dont get me wronge personally I wouldnt concider myself fully religious, and I do lack, but G-d willing will fill in the missing holes, BUT im not nor am I going to be a leader. A leader has to be completly loyal to G-d.
Anyway even a good leader participating in the rotten eruv rav kanesset just gives power to the eruv rav.

[MarZutra]

Personally, if one classifies themselves as a Jew and tries sincerely to do what is morally right and logically correct, he'd be worthy of support.  The Torah observancy can be gained through education.  One cannot build a castle upon a base of sand but if one has a good base (morality) and accepts Torah, although ignroant, is very worthy of investment...  My 2cents worth...

PS: I'm extremely ignorant of both Hebrew and Torah.....

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

if some 1 is ignorant in Torah, let them go and learn, little by little they can be educated. How can we have that type of person be a True leader?  Okay if its nomination for a friend, okay, but leader of the Jewish people?
"and tries sincerely to do what is morally right and logically correct,"

 What is right isnt allways what SEEMS logical in the short-run. look at the leaders today, for many it Seems logical and morally right to give arabs land becuase the mean Jews came and took the arab land away. Think about it, without the Torah what justification if their in taking other peoples land?( if it wasnt for the Torah commanding it, which is the only reason)

[MarZutra]

if some 1 is ignorant in Torah, let them go and learn, little by little they can be educated. How can we have that type of person be a True leader?  Okay if its nomination for a friend, okay, but leader of the Jewish people?
"and tries sincerely to do what is morally right and logically correct,"

 What is right isnt allways what SEEMS logical in the short-run. look at the leaders today, for many it Seems logical and morally right to give arabs land becuase the mean Jews came and took the arab land away. Think about it, without the Torah what justification if their in taking other peoples land?( if it wasnt for the Torah commanding it, which is the only reason)

Ok, from your Bible King David, Samson, Saul, Solomon were not all Rabbis and were not alway "moral" but they happened to be good political leaders surrounded by good advisors, for the most part, and had the Sanhedran to administer law over the people.  There can be a medium.  Allow me to display logic to base response on your statement.  Remember what is stated above?
 
1.  If the Jews took the land from the Arabs, who did the British take the land from? (Jews took it from the British and lived there before Islam)
2.  Was "Palestine" Arab land when the non Arab Ottoman Turks held the land for 500 years? (with mass Jewish population West of the River Jordan: 1860 Mark Twain "The Innocents Abroad")
3.  Was "Palestine" ever an Arab "Nation"?  (No, but it was the last Jewish Nation)
4.  Did the Arabs ever know a "Palestine" historically? (No due to the fact the name "Palestine" was resurrected by the Italian artists during the Rennesiance when they embraced their pagan mythological pasts, but never applied to the land itself)
5.  How important is it to Islam if it is never mentioned in the entire Quraan?  (over 800 times in the Tanach)
6.  If the Jews took the land why does JNF have receipts for over 70% from absentee land lords? (Jewish National Fund Archives)
7.  Is it morally right to give the Arabs more land considering 1/4 of the entire Earth's surface is the Islamic World with dozens of States?
8.  Is it morally and logically right to award more land knowing that thousands of murders, 5 wars, continual breaking of every agreement to wage war, lieing like a $10 crack whore do they deserve the land have all been repeatedly shown on the part of the Muslim/Arab? 
9.  Is it moral correct to reward terrorism, lies murder and broken promises with another Terrorist State? (I guess it is considering Arafat got a Nobel Pieces Prize ) 

The Rambam professed "If something is not logical chances are it is not correct".  Combine that with and Rabbinical Guidance on Torah.....  I'd feel very comfortable knowing my Prime Minister was a G-d fearing man....unlike most of those sitting in the Bolshevik Israel Knesset.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

yes Reed.  anyway dont put down some 1 as great a Solomon, without proper knowledge, or "I think". anyway, we dont read the Torah and Tannah just plainly without furthur explanations, we have the Oral Law to explain in details what happened. Guys please go learn Torah. if  you want audio, please visit www.learntorah.com , or go to http://www.dailyhalacha.com/ , ( and theirs more where that came from  )

[kahaneloyalist]

Yaakov, what you are thinking of, and what is recorded in Sefer Melachim is that some of Shlomo HaMelech's wives commited idolotry behind his back, which he stopped as soon as he found out. But because he had so many wives they were able to do idolotry behind his back, albeit for a short time. For someone on Shlomo HaMelech's level this is a terrible avera, that is what is meant when it says Shlomo HaMelech practiced idolotry, check out Gemara Sanhedrin

[MarZutra]

Tzvi, I agree with you and wanted to entertain your arguement from another perspective.  Nobody is perfect from Adam to me. I was just trying to relay my belief that a G-d fearing man who truly tries to be moral and logical would be a very good candidate for a leader.  For this person to also have very knowledged and moral advisors only adds credability to his position.  Of course you are correct, very correct. 

The rest of the arguement about Solomon, David etc. is just talk considering the above position....  I, personally, feel we are all bringing up very good points but from a different angle to the same outcome...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

soryy CZ, but we dont allways read the Tannah at face value, we have the oral law to explain in details about the events, etc. (I dont want to get into a discussion about it, but bottom line is that great people like for example King David- when things are written extremly negativly about him, its on His high level, but for the average shmoze like us, King Davids (and other ppl in the Torah) "sins" would be concidered great mitzvot for us. If we dont fully understand the events in the Tannah its because of OUR negligence, and soo we must at the very least judge great people like David, Solomon, etc with Favor. (kol Haadam Lekah Zahot - including people in Ancient times).

[takebackourtemple]

Wasn't Herzl the one who wanted to make Uganda the Jewish state so Jews can support all the starving nations around it and be blamed when everything goes wrong. Not only would we have problems from the whole Muslim world, but also from the black world. Uganda is south of the Sudan where self-hating Jews and Hollywood Liberals are trying to get American troops killed as is. The Jewish state would surely be called Racist more than it is today if they had their country on the African continent. Oh what a disaster this would be.

[MarZutra]

Wasn't Herzl the one who wanted to make Uganda the Jewish state so Jews can support all the starving nations around it and be blamed when everything goes wrong. Not only would we have problems from the whole Muslim world, but also from the black world. Uganda is south of the Sudan where self-hating Jews and Hollywood Liberals are trying to get American troops killed as is. The Jewish state would surely be called Racist more than it is today if they had their country on the African continent. Oh what a disaster this would be.

Yes that would be the same....

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Speaking of "Ingathering of The Exiles to Uganda", that wouldn't be a bad idea for a different group of people who I won't mention by name because I'm so moderate I won't even say.

LOL!

good idea to send Herzl and the Zionists (Yimach Shemo)

[MarZutra]

I agree Yacov.  Pehaps they'd take the Balestinians, Black Hebros and Communist Judenrot from Aretz Israel with them as well...

I managed to find a very applicable passage from the Jerusalem Talmud, Hagiggah 1:7 - "Better the Jews abandon (HaShem) and continue to observe My Laws, through the observance of My Laws they will return to G-d (HaShem)" which relates to Jeremiah 16:11. 

Does this apply to a leader of Aretz Israel I do not know.....

[takebackourtemple]

   Blacks who hate this country are the ones that should be sent there. True, many of them may not know where their homeland is anymore, but Uganda is a lot closer than New York, Atlanta, or Detroit.