Tattooing of Jews.

[Ben Ish Chai]

he's not a self-hating jew... i just don't think he's a jew at all.

his "religion" seems to be some sort of Shoah-based memorial - every action and implication in this posting is to try and justify to himself that he can DEFAME HIS BODY WITH INK, and CREMATE HIS BODY TO ASH.... so that you can share the same terrible forced punishments that your family died for?  I dont want to be insensitive, because I understand I will never convince you otherwise (especially upon hearing the way your father taught you, and his ideas of afterlife)...The Nazi's FORCED jews to get tattoo's, they FORCED jews into the ovens - even then, there was RABBINIC rulings on what was Halacha, and what was not - even in the ghettoes and death camps.... Judaism cannot flex to these extents without breaking - we have a ruling body, and they decide what truly is kosher, and what is not.

But i think if you spent more spiritual time and dedication toward the REAL reason all those people died (because they were STIFF NECKED jews, and would rather DIE than convert or stray at all from the religion), then you would be ashamed for your reasoning and decisions to blatantly flaunt and ignore the laws of our great religion... which would truly ensure you a better afterlife and help you achieve closure.

[Rubystars]

As a Christian I don't believe the body is important at all once you leave it. Certainly it should be treated with respect by those left behind, and not defiled, but I don't think you can hurt someone in any way once they're dead. My body is not me. I'm a spiritual being living inside my body.

Cremation is forbidden in Christianity.

I don't think it's a direct commandment that we have to be buried. My aunt died of cancer and was cremated because she was broke and no one could afford a funeral. We plan to bury her remains one day but we still have her in our home right now. I think it's nicer to be buried, but there are times when it's impractical.

The particles that make up someone's body don't disappear, anyway. Do you really think God's going to say "Oh, they got cremated, so they can't be in heaven." Ridiculous.

[Rubystars]

From a scientific perspective, after a few hundred years there usually isn't much left of people's bones anyway. Those things usually break down over a period of time and don't fossilize. Even if they did fossilize, that's just the actual bone being replaced with stone.

Why does someone want to completely obliterate their entire Earthly presence?

The particles that make up the body never go away even if you're cremated. They just move around the earth a bit.

[abdithefaithful]

Look, I realize that this is probably one of the most controversial of subjects we've tackled on this forum... And it's pretty obvious that opinions are varying to a degree... There was a time in our history when the tattoo had far greater of a "criminal  element" to it among most people in "mainstream society"... It's certainly no secret here on this cherished message board that our faith does not look positively on those who choose to color their own bodies with designs of either their own imagination or from the imagination of others (at the tattoo application stores)... As you probably all know by now, I am a man of faith, so therefore I lean towards the more "conservative" view that one should attempt to not tattoo oneself in the sort of manner that we see so many people do these days--- And yes, I understand that my opinion may actually be in the "minority" among those in the mainstream's school of thought regarding tattoos and so-called "body art"...

[nessuno]

Look, I realize that this is probably one of the most controversial of subjects we've tackled on this forum... And it's pretty obvious that opinions are varying to a degree... There was a time in our history when the tattoo had far greater of a "criminal  element" to it among most people in "mainstream society"... It's certainly no secret here on this cherished message board that our faith does not look positively on those who choose to color their own bodies with designs of either their own imagination or from the imagination of others (at the tattoo application stores)... As you probably all know by now, I am a man of faith, so therefore I lean towards the more "conservative" view that one should attempt to not tattoo oneself in the sort of manner that we see so many people do these days--- And yes, I understand that my opinion may actually be in the "minority" among those in the mainstream's school of thought regarding tattoos and so-called "body art"...

I'm with you on this one.
I don't care for them either.
I know it sounds horrible...but I hate to see tattoos on women.
I guess because when I was growing up it was not the norm for women to have tattoos.
I've already told my child - no permanent tattoos allowed.    I don't even like the fake ones.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

Many were burnt to ash in the end, no bones were saved.

Tovia Singer said Hitler didn't pulvarize the bones so they survived the burning.

Plus I am not going to be buried anyway.

Then what are you going to do?

Tovia Singer was incorrect. In the end the ovens run white hot 24 hours a day, nothing was left of most.

I will be cremated, as was my father and placed in the ocean. And so will be my mother when she dies.

In my opinion, i think the proper thing is a burial and allow the earth do the decomposing in the natural way.

Yes it is the proper thing.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

Skippy why do you want to be cremated?

As I said most of my family on both sides were cremated in the death camps, and my fathers dying wish was to be cremated as well, to be with his family.

And I want to join them too, I have spent all of my life without them, I don't wish to spend all my afterlife separated from them either.

You're a Jew right? But don't Jews believe that burns the soul?

Yes I am a Jewess, I don't believe your soul can ever be destroyed, even after my fathers death I am still strongly connected to him. At many times of my life I feel he is with me. The soul has to go somewhere. And where ever that is, is where my soul will go too.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

I believe in a very compassionate G-d.   I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.

I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father 

[MassuhDGoodName]

Torah forbids this practice.

And for good reason.

A "Nation of Priests" of The Most High G-d does not continue on with the abominations practiced by idolators.

A large part of The Law given through Moses was to make the Jewish People a sanctified nation living apart, one that did not "mark their skin", or "pass their children through fire", or "castrate themselves"; all practices of the peoples into whose midst the nation Israel was born.

We were set apart from other nations, to serve the One True G-d and to be as "A Light Unto the Nations".

*and in a secular sense, tattooing was (and still is) considered to be associated with criminal pathology (an actual syndrome known as "tattoo syndrome"), barbarian cultures, and military service.  Women are found throughout the Arab world with tattooed lips and tattooed faces; the same found also in primitive African tribes.  Flagellation and self-mortification were, and continue to be, the practices of idolators and  primitives. (Just look at the Muslim Sh-it-'ites cutting their heads with knives to celebrate the Feast of Ali...exactly as done by the worshippers of Moloch, Ba'al, and other false gods of the ancient Middle East).
**I'm simply stating the Jewish position on tattooing and other practices...not damning anyone or wanting to insult others...just the facts.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

Skippy why do you want to be cremated?

As I said most of my family on both sides were cremated in the death camps, and my fathers dying wish was to be cremated as well, to be with his family.

And I want to join them too, I have spent all of my life without them, I don't wish to spend all my afterlife separated from them either.

Then you're a self-hating Jew. Don't you want to be resurrected? The family that was burnt in The Holocaust was burnt without their will. It is possible that if you voluntarily burn it, you will be obliterated for ever and ever just like you plan on doing to your physical body.

Why does someone want to completely obliterate their entire Earthly presence?

Yacov then you are an idiot to think I am a self hating Jew.
May G-d forgive your naive and stupid actions, because I never will.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

From a scientific perspective, after a few hundred years there usually isn't much left of people's bones anyway. Those things usually break down over a period of time and don't fossilize. Even if they did fossilize, that's just the actual bone being replaced with stone.

Why does someone want to completely obliterate their entire Earthly presence?

The particles that make up the body never go away even if you're cremated. They just move around the earth a bit.

Exactly Ruby

You are a very wise lady.

Anyway its quite physical. The ash well, not so much ash its like rough sand.

And every much still your love one.

[White Israelite]

My father was cremated, but he was rotting a while after his body was found so it was for hygiene purposes I believe?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I believe in a very compassionate G-d.   I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.

I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father 

 G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

I believe in a very compassionate G-d.   I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.

I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father 

 G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.

Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

My father was cremated, but he was rotting a while after his body was found so it was for hygiene purposes I believe?

What happen to his ashes?

I am sorry for your loss.

[Ben Ish Chai]

Yacov then you are an idiot to think I am a self hating Jew.
May G-d forgive your naive and stupid actions, because I never will.

maybe you are the idiot?  You ask a question on a forum for Jews, and then react angrily and ignorantly when you don't get the answer you were looking for - even though a shocking amount of users did tell you what you wanted to hear.

I'm sorry - go back to my post (on the previous page) for more of why you are actually wrong in thinking you can stretch the religion to fit your needs, and why body ink AND cremation are wrong.

Bottom line - Jews have a RULING BODY (like all other religions) of scholars who dedicate their lives to studying, deciphering, and modernizing the scriptures and the laws handed down to us as Har Sinai.  If you do not agree with these rulings, then in my opinion (and the opinion of Jewry worldwide) you are OUTSIDE of the religion.  You are the one who is wrong!  You are the one who has made some perverted reasoning to justify the fact that you have broken our laws, and plan to break our laws again in the future!

Jews during the Holocaust were TORMENTED by the every-day depravity and disgusting circumstances they were forced through.  But even THEN, they looked to Rabbi's and scholars available to pass judgements on what was considered Halacha, and what was not!  Even those who were made to have tattoo's during the holocaust - the very same people you exploit in your disgusting justification for breaking Jewish law currently, when things are GOOD - went to Rabbis and other scholars learned in the Halacha to see what acts were and were not permissible.

I STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU LOOK AT THIS LINK: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265307,00.html

I look forward to a response, whether you like what I said or not.... I dont hate you, but I do hate when people blatantly violate and flaunt the age-old traditions and laws of our religion, and trying to reason with themselves somehow that they are NOT doing just this!
What you are asking people to approve of is a clear double-face; on one hand your actions go directly AGAINST judaism, yet on the other hand you claim that you adhere to the laws and consider yourself a Jew.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I believe in a very compassionate G-d.   I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.

I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father 

 G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.

Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.

 So? Was it because of their choice? or it happened that way? - Its like saying many Jews have eaten non-kosher food in history, the question is was it because they were literally starving and had to or else they would die, or because the doller menu is cheaper then the Kosher food, or they have a desire to eat cheese burgers. In the first case one is not a Rasha, in the second they are by purposly going agains't G-d, How much more soo planning something out for the future. The problem, im sad to see is ignorance- it is the worse danger. The Jewish nation doesn't make decisions based on opinion, we have to make decisions based on Halacha (G-d's orders and what G-d knows is good for you). I hope you see the proper way, and not let your emotions cause you eternal damage.  

[Ari]

I can understand that the aim should be to live a perfect life according to Halacha, but I would doubt that many people, if any, live an entirely perfect life.  I also agree that if one does commit an indiscretion it is up to G-d to judge him or her and not fellow man.  I think it is also commanded for Jews to love fellow Jews and righteous Gentiles, even if we do not agree with every one of their actions, within reason of course.  While I would not do it, I simply can't compare someone getting a tattoo with murder, rape, etc.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

Yacov then you are an idiot to think I am a self hating Jew.
May G-d forgive your naive and stupid actions, because I never will.

maybe you are the idiot?  You ask a question on a forum for Jews, and then react angrily and ignorantly when you don't get the answer you were looking for - even though a shocking amount of users did tell you what you wanted to hear.

I'm sorry - go back to my post (on the previous page) for more of why you are actually wrong in thinking you can stretch the religion to fit your needs, and why body ink AND cremation are wrong.

Bottom line - Jews have a RULING BODY (like all other religions) of scholars who dedicate their lives to studying, deciphering, and modernizing the scriptures and the laws handed down to us as Har Sinai.  If you do not agree with these rulings, then in my opinion (and the opinion of Jewry worldwide) you are OUTSIDE of the religion.  You are the one who is wrong!  You are the one who has made some perverted reasoning to justify the fact that you have broken our laws, and plan to break our laws again in the future!

Jews during the Holocaust were TORMENTED by the every-day depravity and disgusting circumstances they were forced through.  But even THEN, they looked to Rabbi's and scholars available to pass judgements on what was considered Halacha, and what was not!  Even those who were made to have tattoo's during the holocaust - the very same people you exploit in your disgusting justification for breaking Jewish law currently, when things are GOOD - went to Rabbis and other scholars learned in the Halacha to see what acts were and were not permissible.

I STRONGLY SUGGEST YOU LOOK AT THIS LINK: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265307,00.html

I look forward to a response, whether you like what I said or not.... I dont hate you, but I do hate when people blatantly violate and flaunt the age-old traditions and laws of our religion, and trying to reason with themselves somehow that they are NOT doing just this!
What you are asking people to approve of is a clear double-face; on one hand your actions go directly AGAINST judaism, yet on the other hand you claim that you adhere to the laws and consider yourself a Jew.

I asked a question, I did not seek approve from you and any one else.

I will answer what is need, but will not be attacked for raising a question.

Since you have choosen to attack me I will not answer you.

 

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

I believe in a very compassionate G-d.   I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.

I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father 

 G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.

Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.

 So? Was it because of their choice? or it happened that way? - Its like saying many Jews have eaten non-kosher food in history, the question is was it because they were literally starving and had to or else they would die, or because the doller menu is cheaper then the Kosher food, or they have a desire to eat cheese burgers.

you have gone off topic, the question was about Hilter tattooing Jews, not about what I do.

So do you think that if Jew is put in that situation they can enter heaven?

[Ben Ish Chai]

You're in the wrong forum then.

If you want somewhere where people will applaud you for doing WHATEVER YOU WANT, then maybe you should join some LEFTIST group, where they embrace homosexuals, bisexuals, trans-gender people, and whoever else does whatever they want with no regard.

Not only that, you will also be able to find many other "jews" who do whatever they want, and claim to be "Jewish"

[Ben Ish Chai]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3265307,00.html

CLICK ON THIS LINK

YES... i believe that those who were GIVEN tattoos against their will during the Shoah will go to heaven, if they lived their lives reasonably within the boundaries of Halacha.  There were (and have been even further in the past) terrible circumstances which caused people to do things that were outside of hte laws of Judaism - however, if it is by CHOICE (such as someone getting a tattoo TODAY, by choice) then it is an inexcusible violation of our religion.

May i remind you again however, that many of the practices and traditions of Judaism are NOT REASONABLE - you can think about context and situation and whatever you'd like for hours and hours and not find a "logical" reason for doing so - MANY LAWS IN JUDAISM ARE JUST THAT - "ARBITRARY" LAWS JUST TO PROVE THAT YOU SUBMIT TO GOD, AND YOU WILL FOLLOW HIS RULES AND COMMANDS.

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

You're in the wrong forum then.

If you want somewhere where people will applaud you for doing WHATEVER YOU WANT, then maybe you should join some LEFTIST group, where they embrace homosexuals, bisexuals, trans-gender people, and whoever else does whatever they want with no regard.

Not only that, you will also be able to find many other "jews" who do whatever they want, and claim to be "Jewish"

Thats your opinion you are entitled to it.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I believe in a very compassionate G-d.   I think he can forgive things such as tattoos and being cremated.

I 100% agree with you Ari, G-d is all forgiving. And a loving Father 

 G-d says specifically that if you say that ill sin and G-d will forgive, or its not a big deal, etc. G-d is expecially going to severly punish that person. I understand we are not perfect, and the sins we did in the past, we did in the past, we should make proper Tishuva on it. BUT to specifically plan on making sins, wayy into the future to add to that, I dont see any logic to that. It is spiritual suicide, and I have no doubt that that person will NOT go to a higher place after they die. At the very least if they merit it they will have to go back into many many harsh tikkunim (soul corrections) which is no joke, and that is if they have some merits, if not then they could loose it all, forever. It is no joke, either way you loose. The proper way is to follow the ways (Halachot) of G-d, and not use our distorted opinion on matters.

Many Jews have been cremated throughout history, in one way or another. And G-d knows that.
Regardless of everything G-d is the one that judges not mere humans.

 So? Was it because of their choice? or it happened that way? - Its like saying many Jews have eaten non-kosher food in history, the question is was it because they were literally starving and had to or else they would die, or because the doller menu is cheaper then the Kosher food, or they have a desire to eat cheese burgers.

you have gone off topic, the question was about Hilter tattooing Jews, not about what I do.

So do you think that if Jew is put in that situation they can enter heaven?

 I thought that I explained it in the different number of posts (I even said that, its not necessarly a formula type thing).
  My answer again is YES. They are not at fault for getting a number tattoed on them (for now well only deal with the present life, dont want to get it more complicated), or even worse being cremated (if they were). This simply was done by the nazi YSV, agains't them. BUT that is in no way the same as a person choosing on his/her own free will to do these things, expecially cremation.

[Ben Ish Chai]

You're in the wrong forum then.

If you want somewhere where people will applaud you for doing WHATEVER YOU WANT, then maybe you should join some LEFTIST group, where they embrace homosexuals, bisexuals, trans-gender people, and whoever else does whatever they want with no regard.

Not only that, you will also be able to find many other "jews" who do whatever they want, and claim to be "Jewish"

Thats your opinion you are entitled to it.

NO! IT'S NOT AN OPINION!  WHAT YOU HAVE IS AN OPINION - AND YOU ARE TRYING TO GET IT VALIDATED BY PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT THE RABBINIC COUNCILS AND HALACHA ARE THE RULES TO FOLLOW!

STOP IGNORING WHAT ME AND THE OTHER JEWS HAVE TO SAY.  You are a very sick and ill cancer patient looking for a second opinion from a doctor that will say "you are healthy, there is nothing at all wrong with you!".... You can't selectively choose what advice to hear - doing so is being a Liberal Leftist.