Author Topic: Israel & South Africa collaborated in rocket technology in the 1970's & 1980's  (Read 8925 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AriseSouthAfrica

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Israel and South Africa collaborated closely in rocket technology in the 1970's and 1980's.

South Africa provided Israel with the uranium and test facilities it needed for its strategic weapons programmes. In exchange Israel provided aerospace technology. This included the capability of building the ten-tonne solid propellant rocket motors designed for the Israeli Jericho-2 missile. These motors were the basis of two space launchers for an indigenous 'R5b' space programme. It seems that South Africa also planned to use these motors in a series of missiles to provide a nuclear deterrent.

Two shorter-range missiles (the RSA-1 and RSA-2) were intended for use on Cuban or Warsaw Pact troop concentrations should a massed attack be made from an adjacent country. The RSA-4 ICBM was also in long-term development, possibly to deter the United States or Soviet Union from sponsoring such an attack in the first place.

The original intended payload for the missiles was said to be the uranium gun-type atomic bombs developed in South Africa between 1971 and 1989. Seven of these weapons were built, each with a mass of about one tonne, a diameter of 65 centimetres and a length of 1.8 meters. Each device contained 55 kilograms of highly enriched uranium, producing a fission yield of 10-18 kilotons. Five of the weapons were configured as air-launched bombs, but were said to be adaptable to missile launch. It was planned during the 1990's to lighten and modernise these warheads, and use tritium-boosting to increase the yield to 100 Kt. A missile using the original devices would have to be provided with a heat shield, implying a total warhead mass of around 1500 kg. This would not have permitted the RSA-4 to reach intercontinental range. Presumably the boosted, modernised warheads, that were to have been completed by 2000, would have been under 700 kg and allowed the missile to reach New York or Moscow.

Substantial facilities for assembly, test, and launch of the rockets were built at the Overberg Test Range at the tip of Africa. Overberg was also used for Israeli Jericho-2 test flights.

As a cover for and supplement to the missile development, the R5b indigenous space programme was funded. This would use the RSA-3 and RSA-4 launchers. Four South African space rockets were built. Three were launched into suborbital trajectories in the late 1980's in support of development of the RSA-3 launched Greensat Orbital Management System (for commercial satellite applications of vehicle tracking and regional planning). The range was also used for aerospace and system testing for British, Swedish and Czech programmes.

Following the decision in 1989 to cancel the nuclear weapons program, the missile programs were allowed to continue until 1992, when military funding ended and South Africa officially ended its missile collaboration with Israel. All ballistic missile work was stopped by mid-1993. In order to join the Missile Technology Control Regime the government had to allow American supervision of the destruction of key facilities applicable to both the long range missile and the space launch programmes. The RSA-3 and RSA-4 space launchers were therefore cancelled in 1994.

Prime Contractor Houwteq had to dismantle its existing RSA rocket components, and retrieve and sequester technical data from its subcontractors. Propellant manufacturer Somchem eliminated the RSA solid propellants and rocket casings that remained in stock. Denel filled in its large engine casting pits at Somerset West and demolished its large-scale X-ray inspection equipment. The Hangklip static motor test facility at Rooi Els was converted to a nature reserve. The Overberg Test Range was allowed to remain for use by 'potential foreign partners'. Following these measures, South Africa joined the Missile Technology Control Regime in September 1995.

Houwteq's staff at Overberg grew to a peak of 500 in 1992, before the cancellations began. By 1997 the staff was reduced to 28. Houwteq's Ian Farr continued to market the Overberg facility for commercial launchers until at least 1997. Nothing came of these efforts, and it seems that the book was closed on further indigenous African space activities.

Since much remains undisclosed about the Israeli Jericho missiles and Shavit / Next space launchers, the material on the South African rockets provides some insights into Israeli programmes. The RSA-2 clearly corresponds closely to the Jericho-2, and the RSA-3 to the Shavit launcher. It is interesting that there has been no mention of an Israeli counterpart to the Peacekeeper-class first stage motor of the RSA-4. This may represent a 'reserve' Israeli capability to upgrade the Jericho-2 to ICBM range that has never been made public. However there have been reports of Israeli development of a MIRV capability for its missiles. The post-boost warhead dispenser for such a capability could correspond to the RSA-4 fourth stage.

from: http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/jericho.htm
Let G_d arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. (Psalm 68:1)

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Yep it's true, Israel and South Africa traded a lot. That's why South Africa uses the R4 and R5 (based off the Israeli Galil) and also uses many things used in Israel like their helmets. If you look at Israeli helmets and the South African helmets, their identical.

I have a South African helmet and you can take a look for yourself






Offline AriseSouthAfrica

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Cool! Thanks מאיר כהן
I love the fact that we collaborated with Israel!!
Let G_d arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. (Psalm 68:1)

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Cool! Thanks מאיר כהן
I love the fact that we collaborated with Israel!!

Heres the South African R4 & R5, identical to Galil

















Ah the Galil is a beautiful weapon. I hear the new SANDF has new camo and still uses the Galil but I hear that they are no where near as well trained as the old SADF.

It's a shame Israel stopped supporting South Africa, I think it was somewhere in the 80's that they finally stopped selling weapons to them.

Offline AriseSouthAfrica

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Cool! Thanks מאיר כהן
I love the fact that we collaborated with Israel!!

Ah the Galil is a beautiful weapon. I hear the new SANDF has new camo and still uses the Galil but I hear that they are no where near as well trained as the old SADF.

It's a shame Israel stopped supporting South Africa, I think it was somewhere in the 80's that they finally stopped selling weapons to them.

I used the R4 in the SADF in Namibia in the 1980's.

The new SANDF is pathetic! It has poor training and no discipline!
The parade grounds are even overgrown with weeds!
Let G_d arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. (Psalm 68:1)

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Cool! Thanks מאיר כהן
I love the fact that we collaborated with Israel!!

Ah the Galil is a beautiful weapon. I hear the new SANDF has new camo and still uses the Galil but I hear that they are no where near as well trained as the old SADF.

It's a shame Israel stopped supporting South Africa, I think it was somewhere in the 80's that they finally stopped selling weapons to them.

I used the R4 in the SADF in Namibia in the 1980's.

The new SANDF is pathetic! It has poor training and no discipline!
The parade grounds are even overgrown with weeds!

I watched a demonstration of them loading up mortars like a bunch of monkeys, I barely see any whites in SANDF anymore.

I have some book by Osprey about the original SADF, cool book.

What did you think of the R4/R5? I have a Galil and I love mine. It's a little heavy at first but once I running around with it and lifting it up, it's not as noticeable and feels very solid. I'm not afraid to beat someone with it like a billy club or whip it in the back of my car. I treat it like a bastard step child.

R4 parts are hard to find, I have a gas tube, magazines and dust cover for a R4 but it's impossible to find the sights, stocks, handguards, or some of the other parts.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 03:45:10 PM by מאיר כהן »

Offline AriseSouthAfrica

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
I felt very comfortable with the R4, the R5 is not as heavy. In training with the R4 in the SADF, at first it seemed heavy but within no time you get very used to it! I really like the R4 and wish I owned one, but now in South Africa it would be illegal to own one!

This government is making it very difficult to own ANY weapons at all!
Let G_d arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. (Psalm 68:1)

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
I felt very comfortable with the R4, the R5 is not as heavy. In training with the R4 in the SADF, at first it seemed heavy but within no time you get very used to it! I really like the R4 and wish I owned one, but now in South Africa it would be illegal to own one!

This government is making it very difficult to own ANY weapons at all!

Do you still live in South Africa? I had a girlfriend that lived there claiming she had an R5 civilian variant illegally. She was reluctant to tell too much information but she left the country.

Offline AriseSouthAfrica

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Yes! I still live in SA unfortunately! I have seen this country turn into a hell hole in just over a decade since Marxist rule!
The infrastructure is crumbling, the crime is out of hand and there is a white genocide under way.
We still have idiot white liberals who think everything is okay, in fact better than under white rule!
Everyday it gets worse!
Let G_d arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. (Psalm 68:1)

Offline Еврей

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
Very cool article!  O0
I look forward to the day when South Africa becomes a better place to live  ;)
"My name is Daniel Pearl. I am a Jewish American"
"My family follows Judaism. We've made numerous family visits to Israel."
~Daniel Pearl

"We are a small nation, but strong."
~Moshe Dayan

"First of all, Arafat is wrong. Jerusalem is Israel's capital, will never be divided, and will remain the capital of the State of Israel, the capital of the Jewish people, for ever and ever. "
~Benjamin Netanyahu

ביחד נשרוד, לחוד ניפול
Together we survive, apart we fall
~Subliminal

Offline AriseSouthAfrica

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Very cool article!  O0
I look forward to the day when South Africa becomes a better place to live  ;)

I look forward to that day too! Then we can link up and I can show you the country!  :)
Let G_d arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. (Psalm 68:1)

Offline Boeregeneraal

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2257
You know, I get this feeling in my haert, proudness, happyness and all those nice feelings, when I think about hopw our great peoples worked together, and really conquered the world...literally! G-D looks favourably upon our two peoples and our other righteous people's (eg americans, canadians, serbians etc) and how WE WILL be VICTORIOUS!!!

Great post ARISE...as always

Offline AriseSouthAfrica

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
You know, I get this feeling in my haert, proudness, happyness and all those nice feelings, when I think about hopw our great peoples worked together, and really conquered the world...literally! G-D looks favourably upon our two peoples and our other righteous people's (eg americans, canadians, serbians etc) and how WE WILL be VICTORIOUS!!!

Great post ARISE...as always

AMEN! Boeregeneraal! We WILL be victorious!!  O0
Let G_d arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. (Psalm 68:1)

Offline Boeregeneraal

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2257
YES!!!

btw, great photo's Pilman! Where did you find them?

Offline TruthSpreader

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8754
    • http://www.youtube.com/user/WeThePeopleZeb
I hope one day the whites will take control of South Africa once again. Though I thought that will happen anytime soon.

Dan - Stay calm and be brave in order to judge correctly and make the right decision

Offline AriseSouthAfrica

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
I hope one day the whites will take control of South Africa once again. Though I thought that will happen anytime soon.



It WILL happen Duke Nukem! When the time is right!
Let G_d arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. (Psalm 68:1)

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
YES!!!

btw, great photo's Pilman! Where did you find them?

I had them stored from different websites on the SADF and militaryphotos.net, mainly a compilation when I was looking to make a thread on a military website about "Galil useage around the world" and South Africa popped up.

Offline Boeregeneraal

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2257
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity

The R4 is basically the same as the Galil ARM variant.

The only differences are the gas tube (on the R4 it has a lip), the stock is longer (because average south african is taller than Israeli though I've heard many preferred the shorter Israeli stock), the front sight is much bigger, the dust cover is a bit thicker, and the gas tube appears to be a little different for more efficient gas system. Handguard is also much longer. It's slightly improved over the original Galil. Sadly the R4/R5/R6 haven't been produced for quite some time which is somewhat awkward because that is currently standard issue in SANDF. They are trying to produce a bullpup design called the Vektor CR-21.



Notice the Galil receiver in the picture and the CR21 body disassembled?



The Vektor CR-21 is basically the Galil but shorter configuration, the milled receiver is inside the polymer body.

I don't know the status of the CR-21 but the fact that South Africa isn't currently producing any of the R4's/R5's or R6's is a little...confusing. I can understand the R1 not being made anymore (The FN FAL) but theres no explanation otherwise. I highly doubt South Africa will adapt the Israeli TAR-21 either since the government currently has bad ties with Israel.

Personally I find it strange that the SADF used the R4 as a standard weapon, one would think that the weapon would have been quite heavy with a bipod as it seemed somewhat unnecessary, but maybe it was useful in the bush? The Israelis used the Galil ARM with bipod but then slowly adapted to the AR variant with the longer barrel and no bipod to reduce weight, tank operators were given the SAR (which is the R5 in South Africa) with shorter 13" barrel for ultra compactness. Eventually Galil was phased out in Israel with the exception of tank crew and some special operations teams but most are using M4 now or Tavor.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 11:10:49 PM by מאיר כהן »

Offline AriseSouthAfrica

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity


Personally I find it strange that the SADF used the R4 as a standard weapon, one would think that the weapon would have been quite heavy with a bipod as it seemed somewhat unnecessary, but maybe it was useful in the bush? The Israelis used the Galil ARM with bipod but then slowly adapted to the AR variant with the longer barrel and no bipod to reduce weight, tank operators were given the SAR (which is the R5 in South Africa) with shorter 13" barrel for ultra compactness. Eventually Galil was phased out in Israel with the exception of tank crew and some special operations teams but most are using M4 now or Tavor.

We used the R4 originally then changed to the R5!
The infantry and other units used the R5 generally, other units which did not see too much action used the R4.
Sometimes certain soldiers even used the Ak47 by choice, usually some of the Recces!
Let G_d arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. (Psalm 68:1)

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity


Personally I find it strange that the SADF used the R4 as a standard weapon, one would think that the weapon would have been quite heavy with a bipod as it seemed somewhat unnecessary, but maybe it was useful in the bush? The Israelis used the Galil ARM with bipod but then slowly adapted to the AR variant with the longer barrel and no bipod to reduce weight, tank operators were given the SAR (which is the R5 in South Africa) with shorter 13" barrel for ultra compactness. Eventually Galil was phased out in Israel with the exception of tank crew and some special operations teams but most are using M4 now or Tavor.

We used the R4 originally then changed to the R5!
The infantry and other units used the R5 generally, other units which did not see too much action used the R4.
Sometimes certain soldiers even used the Ak47 by choice, usually some of the Recces!

I bet that Black Is Beautiful paint worked well too.

Yes my SADF book I have shows some soldiers with AK47's, maybe captured? I didn't know that R5 became standard issued, I always thought it was moreso issued to the police. I even seen many of the SADF with UZI's and Browning Hi-Power pistols.

Some also using the FN FAL (R1) but I don't see that too often anymore.

did you guys use any optics on your R4's or R5's or any other aftermarket parts? Also what do you think is the future of the rifle?

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity

The R4 is basically the same as the Galil ARM variant.

The only differences are the gas tube (on the R4 it has a lip), the stock is longer (because average south african is taller than Israeli though I've heard many preferred the shorter Israeli stock), the front sight is much bigger, the dust cover is a bit thicker, and the gas tube appears to be a little different for more efficient gas system. Handguard is also much longer. It's slightly improved over the original Galil. Sadly the R4/R5/R6 haven't been produced for quite some time which is somewhat awkward because that is currently standard issue in SANDF. They are trying to produce a bullpup design called the Vektor CR-21.



Notice the Galil receiver in the picture and the CR21 body disassembled?



The Vektor CR-21 is basically the Galil but shorter configuration, the milled receiver is inside the polymer body.

I don't know the status of the CR-21 but the fact that South Africa isn't currently producing any of the R4's/R5's or R6's is a little...confusing. I can understand the R1 not being made anymore (The FN FAL) but theres no explanation otherwise. I highly doubt South Africa will adapt the Israeli TAR-21 either since the government currently has bad ties with Israel.

Personally I find it strange that the SADF used the R4 as a standard weapon, one would think that the weapon would have been quite heavy with a bipod as it seemed somewhat unnecessary, but maybe it was useful in the bush? The Israelis used the Galil ARM with bipod but then slowly adapted to the AR variant with the longer barrel and no bipod to reduce weight, tank operators were given the SAR (which is the R5 in South Africa) with shorter 13" barrel for ultra compactness. Eventually Galil was phased out in Israel with the exception of tank crew and some special operations teams but most are using M4 now or Tavor.

The gun in this picture has bull-pup configuration like IMI Tavor and unlike IMI Galil which has traditional action and stock.

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Your absolutely right ARISE! It is vital that the timing is right....

@ Pilman, oh I see. Theire beautiful pictures, and equally beautiful weapons! Last time I did a search on google for the R series, I only got a few not so good pictures, which also lacked in quantity

The R4 is basically the same as the Galil ARM variant.

The only differences are the gas tube (on the R4 it has a lip), the stock is longer (because average south african is taller than Israeli though I've heard many preferred the shorter Israeli stock), the front sight is much bigger, the dust cover is a bit thicker, and the gas tube appears to be a little different for more efficient gas system. Handguard is also much longer. It's slightly improved over the original Galil. Sadly the R4/R5/R6 haven't been produced for quite some time which is somewhat awkward because that is currently standard issue in SANDF. They are trying to produce a bullpup design called the Vektor CR-21.



Notice the Galil receiver in the picture and the CR21 body disassembled?



The Vektor CR-21 is basically the Galil but shorter configuration, the milled receiver is inside the polymer body.

I don't know the status of the CR-21 but the fact that South Africa isn't currently producing any of the R4's/R5's or R6's is a little...confusing. I can understand the R1 not being made anymore (The FN FAL) but theres no explanation otherwise. I highly doubt South Africa will adapt the Israeli TAR-21 either since the government currently has bad ties with Israel.

Personally I find it strange that the SADF used the R4 as a standard weapon, one would think that the weapon would have been quite heavy with a bipod as it seemed somewhat unnecessary, but maybe it was useful in the bush? The Israelis used the Galil ARM with bipod but then slowly adapted to the AR variant with the longer barrel and no bipod to reduce weight, tank operators were given the SAR (which is the R5 in South Africa) with shorter 13" barrel for ultra compactness. Eventually Galil was phased out in Israel with the exception of tank crew and some special operations teams but most are using M4 now or Tavor.

The gun in this picture has bull-pup configuration like IMI Tavor and unlike IMI Galil which has traditional action and stock.

Yes but the Tavor is pretty much a new gun, the CR-21 is not, just a Galil receiver that fits in a new body without the stock, handguard or top cover to reduce the length and weight. It's basically the same firearm, hardly revolutionary.

Offline AriseSouthAfrica

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
"I bet that Black Is Beautiful paint worked well too.

Yes my SADF book I have shows some soldiers with AK47's, maybe captured? I didn't know that R5 became standard issued, I always thought it was moreso issued to the police. I even seen many of the SADF with UZI's and Browning Hi-Power pistols.

Some also using the FN FAL (R1) but I don't see that too often anymore.

did you guys use any optics on your R4's or R5's or any other aftermarket parts? Also what do you think is the future of the rifle?"


Yeah, I remember the "black is beautiful" not fun! really sinks into your pores!

The Ak47's were captured from the "terrs", but sometimes used by the "elite" teams such as Recces or 32 Battalion etc.

I don't think (I'm not sure!) that any optics were used!? I left in 1984, perhaps they were used later!
The "elite" groups would have probably used aftermarket parts as those guys frequently customized their weapons.

You are right that the police used R5, but so did other units, especially the infantry and the Parabats, but
there was actually a mix of R4 and R5 in the SADF.

The SADF in the early days of the Bush war used the FN FAL (R1), this was more frequently used by the Rhodesians in their Bush war.

The future of the rifle? The current "defense force" and police still use it. There is no further development of the rifle however under the new government. The white government were continuously researching and developing.
Let G_d arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. (Psalm 68:1)

Offline AriseSouthAfrica

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Here is a website for the South African Special Forces Brigade/Recces:

http://www.specwarnet.net/world/sasfb.htm

South African Defence Force and the border war (1966-1989)

http://www.sa-soldier.com/
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 07:35:26 PM by AriseSouthAfrica »
Let G_d arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. (Psalm 68:1)