General Category > Introduce Yourself
Iranian saying hello :P
Khashayarsha:
--- Quote from: מאיר כהן on April 30, 2008, 01:21:19 PM ---
--- Quote from: Khashayarsha on April 30, 2008, 12:23:44 PM ---
--- Quote from: מאיר כהן on April 30, 2008, 09:03:37 AM ---Can you please explain what you mean by Khazar Jews? It seems that a number of...people critical of Israels existence refer to Jews, specifically Ashkenazi Jews as being descendants of Khazaria. While there is some truth to Khazar leadership converting to Judaism, what evidence is there to claim that the majority of Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars? Despite recent genetic evidence to the contrary, (evidence: http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf) and a lack of any real mainstream scholarly support, this belief is still popular among groups such as the Christian Identity Movement, Black Hebrews, British Israelitists and others (particularly Arabs), who claim that they, rather than Jews, are the true descendants of the Israelites, or who seek to who usurp the connection between Ashkenazi Jews and Israel in favor of their own.
Most Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, do not exhibit the oriental features of the Khazars, who were likely of Central Asian Turkish origin. Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of Jews, including the Ashkenazi.
A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora." [2]. Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic uniformity they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become dispersed around the world. Contradicting the "mongrel" theory, DNA demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews over the last 3000 years than found in other populations.
"The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism." [3] [43]
Morever, "The analysis provides genetic witness that these communities have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries." Id. And another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities are closely related to Syrians and PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis[44], suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.
This study found that "The extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.",[45] as does the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current Ashkenazi population.[19] So although Khazars could possibly have been absorbed into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is unlikely that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern Jews.[46]
DNA analysis further determined that modern Jews of the priesthood tribe -- or "Cohanim" -- share a common ancestor in Israel dating back about 3000 years, 1700 years older than the Khazar conversion to Judaism. This result is consistent for all Jewish populations around the world.[45] [4]
"Using a combination of molecular genetics and mathematical analysis, the scientists arrived at an estimated date for the most recent common ancestor of contemporary Cohanim. According to this analysis, the common ancestor lived between the Exodus (approx. 1000 B.C.E) and the destruction of the first Temple (586 B.C.E.), consistent with the biblical account. Similar results were obtained based on analysis of either Sefaradi or Ashkenzi communities, confirming the ancestral link of the two communities which had been separated for more than 500 years." [47] [5] "To date the original high priest, the research team used a formula based on a commonly accepted mutation rate. This formula yieded some 106 generations for both Ashkenazi and Sefaradi Jews, or between 2,650 and 3,180 years, depending on whether a generation is counted as 25 or 30 years."
--- End quote ---
I read it all, but they are still "unsure" of ashkenazi jews, and how much of them have the "mongoloid" look or "features. So what will you say in percentage?
--- End quote ---
It's possible but unlikely, the majority of Ashkenazi Jews look like the country they inhabited. Essentially Jews living in European countries have interracially mixed therefore look somewhat like the people of that country though have different customs and culture.
As far as i'm concerned, my mother is German ethnicity who converted to Judaism, so she is a German who practices Judaism. My father was a Jew and his family from Russia and Romania, last name of Cohen. Cohen is a direct descendant of Aaron, so it's not just possible to change to this last name. Since my fathers parents are of European origin, most of them looked similar to slavs but with some slightly different features although my father in specific had a darker complexion and his father did as well though his mother was lighter skin tone. They are classed as Ashkenazi. We have done DNA marker tests and have found no trace of Mongol or Khazar origin, we do not have any genetics common to Mongols or Turks for that matter however we do have what is known as the Kohen gene which you can read here.
Y-chromosomal Aaron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron
Some people don't like wikipedia but all the citations are listed there and you can confirm the sources.
Furthermore, I can prove that I with Ashkenazi background do not have Khazar blood or Mongol blood, I keep hearing these statistics that the majority of Jews are Khazars, well, where is the proof? There has been no evidence to prove the genetics of Jews or to show Mongol features. Go look at a Mongol or check the drawings of Khazars which feature Asiatic/oriental features and the comparison to Ashkenazi (the majority) Jews are a nonfactor.
To me, the argument that Jews are descendents of Khazars because a few of the elite is really a nonfactor, it's as equivalent to a few white Americans living in China and learning Chinese culture, unless it grows at a progressive rate, eventually they would die off just like the Khazars have died off.
--- End quote ---
Thanks, i agree with your conclusion, i dont think ashkenazis have a "high" percentage of "turkic" blood, even the "anatolians" of turkey barely have any turkic blood and most of "pure" "anatolian" stock. I guess the ashkenazis are more of european converts, and european and jew mix.
1 more question, did the ashkenazis came from the same route as the sephardis?
White Israelite:
--- Quote from: Khashayarsha on April 30, 2008, 02:28:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: מאיר כהן on April 30, 2008, 01:21:19 PM ---
--- Quote from: Khashayarsha on April 30, 2008, 12:23:44 PM ---
--- Quote from: מאיר כהן on April 30, 2008, 09:03:37 AM ---Can you please explain what you mean by Khazar Jews? It seems that a number of...people critical of Israels existence refer to Jews, specifically Ashkenazi Jews as being descendants of Khazaria. While there is some truth to Khazar leadership converting to Judaism, what evidence is there to claim that the majority of Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars? Despite recent genetic evidence to the contrary, (evidence: http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf) and a lack of any real mainstream scholarly support, this belief is still popular among groups such as the Christian Identity Movement, Black Hebrews, British Israelitists and others (particularly Arabs), who claim that they, rather than Jews, are the true descendants of the Israelites, or who seek to who usurp the connection between Ashkenazi Jews and Israel in favor of their own.
Most Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, do not exhibit the oriental features of the Khazars, who were likely of Central Asian Turkish origin. Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of Jews, including the Ashkenazi.
A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora." [2]. Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic uniformity they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become dispersed around the world. Contradicting the "mongrel" theory, DNA demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews over the last 3000 years than found in other populations.
"The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism." [3] [43]
Morever, "The analysis provides genetic witness that these communities have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries." Id. And another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities are closely related to Syrians and PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis[44], suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.
This study found that "The extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.",[45] as does the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current Ashkenazi population.[19] So although Khazars could possibly have been absorbed into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is unlikely that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern Jews.[46]
DNA analysis further determined that modern Jews of the priesthood tribe -- or "Cohanim" -- share a common ancestor in Israel dating back about 3000 years, 1700 years older than the Khazar conversion to Judaism. This result is consistent for all Jewish populations around the world.[45] [4]
"Using a combination of molecular genetics and mathematical analysis, the scientists arrived at an estimated date for the most recent common ancestor of contemporary Cohanim. According to this analysis, the common ancestor lived between the Exodus (approx. 1000 B.C.E) and the destruction of the first Temple (586 B.C.E.), consistent with the biblical account. Similar results were obtained based on analysis of either Sefaradi or Ashkenzi communities, confirming the ancestral link of the two communities which had been separated for more than 500 years." [47] [5] "To date the original high priest, the research team used a formula based on a commonly accepted mutation rate. This formula yieded some 106 generations for both Ashkenazi and Sefaradi Jews, or between 2,650 and 3,180 years, depending on whether a generation is counted as 25 or 30 years."
--- End quote ---
I read it all, but they are still "unsure" of ashkenazi jews, and how much of them have the "mongoloid" look or "features. So what will you say in percentage?
--- End quote ---
It's possible but unlikely, the majority of Ashkenazi Jews look like the country they inhabited. Essentially Jews living in European countries have interracially mixed therefore look somewhat like the people of that country though have different customs and culture.
As far as i'm concerned, my mother is German ethnicity who converted to Judaism, so she is a German who practices Judaism. My father was a Jew and his family from Russia and Romania, last name of Cohen. Cohen is a direct descendant of Aaron, so it's not just possible to change to this last name. Since my fathers parents are of European origin, most of them looked similar to slavs but with some slightly different features although my father in specific had a darker complexion and his father did as well though his mother was lighter skin tone. They are classed as Ashkenazi. We have done DNA marker tests and have found no trace of Mongol or Khazar origin, we do not have any genetics common to Mongols or Turks for that matter however we do have what is known as the Kohen gene which you can read here.
Y-chromosomal Aaron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron
Some people don't like wikipedia but all the citations are listed there and you can confirm the sources.
Furthermore, I can prove that I with Ashkenazi background do not have Khazar blood or Mongol blood, I keep hearing these statistics that the majority of Jews are Khazars, well, where is the proof? There has been no evidence to prove the genetics of Jews or to show Mongol features. Go look at a Mongol or check the drawings of Khazars which feature Asiatic/oriental features and the comparison to Ashkenazi (the majority) Jews are a nonfactor.
To me, the argument that Jews are descendents of Khazars because a few of the elite is really a nonfactor, it's as equivalent to a few white Americans living in China and learning Chinese culture, unless it grows at a progressive rate, eventually they would die off just like the Khazars have died off.
--- End quote ---
Thanks, i agree with your conclusion, i dont think ashkenazis have a "high" percentage of "turkic" blood, even the "anatolians" of turkey barely have any turkic blood and most of "pure" "anatolian" stock. I guess the ashkenazis are more of european converts, and european and jew mix.
1 more question, did the ashkenazis came from the same route as the sephardis?
--- End quote ---
I would think they did.
It's hard to say what the original Hebrews looked like, my guess would be similar to those from the Mediterranean or people say in Lebanon or Syria, probably different complexion based on the environment. Some may have been lighter skinned, others may have been darker.
They probably are of the same route but as they broke off and blended into society, then their appearance changed from interracial mixing as well.
For example, I have some features from my father like nose, eyes, ears, etc. but yet I have white skin (not olive or darker like my father) from my mother and brown hair. Most people I met would say I look similar to Slavic/German but if they saw my father, many think he is Greek or Spanish.
Over time as population mixes with outsiders or foreigners, they will start to look different after a number of generations. It's the same with many Americans who claim native American ancestry. You will see many with blonde hair and blue eyes claim this, and sometimes it's difficult to believe them but the genetics do not lie because they have mixed into the population so much that many of these features are no longer apparent.
Zevida:
--- Quote from: Khashayarsha on April 29, 2008, 11:43:37 PM ---
SHow me that jews are getting killed lmao.
--- End quote ---
Ummm, maybe I'm misunderstanding you here. Are you laughing your A** off because Jews are getting killed? Do you think it's funny when Jews are killed? I'm trying to understand what context you are using to put "lmao" after Jews getting killed. :o
Zelhar:
--- Quote from: Khashayarsha on April 30, 2008, 02:18:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: zelhar on April 30, 2008, 01:39:22 PM ---Khashayarsha, this forum is open for debate, people come here to exchange ideas. You admit your ignorance about Islam and its jihad against Freedom. And yet you randomly throw out loony accusations such as blaming American govt for 911 and scapegoating "discriminated Muslims".
If you know nothing about it better learn things before throwing such filthy lies. Are you here to learn and debate seriously or just to troll?
--- End quote ---
Umm? What the hell? I dont care about islam, so stop putting this BS on me. Flithy lies? How the heck am i lying? I said it is a theory! How the hell do you know who did 9/11? Got a video tape of the person hi jacking the air plane????? Seriously, If you're against my opinion fine, but calling me a troll; i dont like. Atleast give me a reason on your post why you're "against" my theory, plus i really don't want to debate about 9/11... :-\
BTW: I already know muslims are lunatics, what are you trying to prove to me? :P
--- End quote ---
I also don't want to debate about 911, however if you come up with conspiracy theories than it's your task to prove them because there are infinity of crazy theories so I won't bother refuting everyone of them.
You also seem completely ignorant about Jews, you believed that all Jews support Marx because he was born to a Jewish family, "communism is the only jewish government" and then you said without knowledge that Ashkenazi Jews are originated from Khazars.
FYI The story about the Khazar comes from Jewhaters racists, however Jews don't care much for racial purity, We treat converts as if they are our brothers in blood and spirit.
--- Quote ---1 more question, did the ashkenazis came from the same route as the sephardis?
--- End quote ---
Yes they both communities were formed by Jews coming from the three great Jewish communities of antiquity: Babylon, Israel and Alexandria.
And Ashkenazi Jews don't all look like Europeans, I sure don't- I have dark skin, brown eyes and black hair, I'm darker than many Jews from Morocco, Yet I have sisters with green eyes, pale skin and blond hair.There's no doubt that Jews have mixed with the gentiles in the Exile.
Khashayarsha:
--- Quote from: zelhar on April 30, 2008, 03:05:28 PM ---
--- Quote from: Khashayarsha on April 30, 2008, 02:18:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: zelhar on April 30, 2008, 01:39:22 PM ---Khashayarsha, this forum is open for debate, people come here to exchange ideas. You admit your ignorance about Islam and its jihad against Freedom. And yet you randomly throw out loony accusations such as blaming American govt for 911 and scapegoating "discriminated Muslims".
If you know nothing about it better learn things before throwing such filthy lies. Are you here to learn and debate seriously or just to troll?
--- End quote ---
Umm? What the hell? I dont care about islam, so stop putting this BS on me. Flithy lies? How the heck am i lying? I said it is a theory! How the hell do you know who did 9/11? Got a video tape of the person hi jacking the air plane????? Seriously, If you're against my opinion fine, but calling me a troll; i dont like. Atleast give me a reason on your post why you're "against" my theory, plus i really don't want to debate about 9/11... :-\
BTW: I already know muslims are lunatics, what are you trying to prove to me? :P
--- End quote ---
I also don't want to debate about 911, however if you come up with conspiracy theories than it's your task to prove them because there are infinity of crazy theories so I won't bother refuting everyone of them.
You also seem completely ignorant about Jews, you believed that all Jews support Marx because he was born to a Jewish family, "communism is the only jewish government" and then you said without knowledge that Ashkenazi Jews are originated from Khazars.
FYI The story about the Khazar comes from Jewhaters racists, however Jews don't care much for racial purity, We treat converts as if they are our brothers in blood and spirit.
--- Quote ---1 more question, did the ashkenazis came from the same route as the sephardis?
--- End quote ---
Yes they both communities were formed by Jews coming from the three great Jewish communities of antiquity: Babylon, Israel and Alexandria.
And Ashkenazi Jews don't all look like Europeans, I sure don't- I have dark skin, brown eyes and black hair, I'm darker than many Jews from Morocco, Yet I have sisters with green eyes, pale skin and blond hair.There's no doubt that Jews have mixed with the gentiles in the Exile.
--- End quote ---
And anything wrong with "conspiracy" theory? It's a theory. ::)
And communism for a long time has been supported by jews, so why cannot say you're going to be a communist? Obviously this group is anti-communist, but i dont really get what a "jewish" government is...
So, what government are you going for? NS? Imperialisms? Some type of yehudi-democracy? ???
It's funny how i never said such things about Ashkenazi's are related to khazars, i asked a question to YOU and other Yehuds, if such claims are true that Ashkenazi have extreme turkic blood... ::)
Stop putting words in my mouth. >:(
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