The Bible, Oral Bible, and History.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I dont disagree, but the underlying and real reason of why Israel is supposed to be controlled by G-d fearing Jews and not any other nation, is becuase of the Torah, we proudly read during Pessah , that G-d took OUR forfather from the other side of the Euphrates river and gave to his (true) decendents the land of Israel.

Also David was allways worthy being the King (he didnt sin, on the level that you and I would call sin) , Samson wasnt a real leader, he was a lone fighter, Saul lost his kingdom  because he didnt follow G-ds commandments and Solomon was also loyal to the Torah. They werent Rabbis nor am I saying that they have(had to be, but they were very pious.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

It is a known fact that King Solomon sinned with his many foreign wives. They influenced him to commit idolatry in the end.

where did you read that   , no way did Solomon commit IDOLOTRY. and yes you are right he did sin in the fact that he married Pharaoh's daughter (in order to have Pharaoh as an alliance), but because of that (their is a Midrash) that says that on the day he married Pharaoh's daughter, a read came up which later was the city of Rome ( which brought the galut that we are in right now)

[Christian Zionist]

It is a known fact that King Solomon sinned with his many foreign wives. They influenced him to commit idolatry in the end.

where did you read that  , no way did Solomon commit IDOLOTRY. and yes you are right he did sin in the fact that he married Pharaoh's daughter (in order to have Pharaoh as an alliance), but because of that (their is a Midrash) that says that on the day he married Pharaoh's daughter, a read came up which later was the city of Rome ( which brought the galut that we are in right now)

King Solomon starting to worship idols is clearly stated in 1 Kings 11: 1-13.  That was the main reason anicent Israel was divided into Northern and Southern kingdoms (with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin in the South). 

1Kings.11

[1]Now King Solomon loved many foreign women: the daughter of Pharaoh, and Moabite, Ammonite, E'domite, Sido'nian, and Hittite women,

[2] from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the people of Israel, "You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you, for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods"; Solomon clung to these in love.
[3] He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart.
[4] For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods; and his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
[5] For Solomon went after Ash'toreth the goddess of the Sido'nians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
[6] So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not wholly follow the LORD, as David his father had done.
[7] Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem.
[8] And so he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
[9]And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,
[10] and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the LORD commanded.
[11] Therefore the LORD said to Solomon, "Since this has been your mind and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you and will give it to your servant.
[12] Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son.
[13] However I will not tear away all the kingdom; but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen."


Only the following Kings of Judah did not worship idols:

Asa (backslid in his last days but never worshipped idols)
Jehosaphat
Uzziah (became a leper finally but never worshipped idols)
Jotham
Hezekiah and
Josiah (Joshiah destroyed the notorious Ashera polls in the high places).

The reforms made by Kings Hezekiah and Josiah delayed the destruction of the southern kingdom for another 133 years.

Kings Amaziah and Joas started well but eventually fell into idolatory.

None of the Northern Kings were loyal to the God of Israel and every one them worshipped idols which led them to Assyrian captivity even 133 years before the Babylonian captivity.

722 B.C.E - End of Northern Kingdom by the Assyrian Empire
586 B.C.E - End of Southern Kingdom by the Babylonian Empire

[adam613]

To be honest I looked this up after this was stated and I would like to know where this is discussed in Sanhadrim. First of all the Navi is not at the same level as the 5 books of Moses and the oral Torah was meant to explain aspects of the written Torah. The Oral Torah though always has to prove that it makes sense according to the rules of the 5 Books of Moses.

With the books of the prophets, they weren't written by Moses at the command of g-d, So, I would like to see where in the Gemara this is discussed because to be honest reading you it looks to me that Solomon sinned in stages. At first he only let his wives do it but then he himself to please his wives put up these forms of Idol Worship.  First it says he went after the Ashororeth. Kings Chapter 11 Verse 5. Then in verse 7 it says he built a high place for Chemosh, After this it says that g-d became angry with Solomon because he strayed from g-d. It then says in verse 11 since you have not kept my decrees that I have commanded you I will split the kingdom. So it could be at first he let his wives do it to which it was said he wasn't as righteous as his father. But once he started doing it himself then g-d became angry with him.

I would like to see the Gemarah in Sanhedrim because it doesn't make sense to me. The Gemarah cannot contradict what the Torah (or the prophets) says without a good explanation as to why. Artscroll gives this interpretation but does not cite a source. Is this ONE opinion of many. Also, again the Prophets isn't like the Torah in which there are certain rules that are used to deduce certain laws that are not explained in detail. It sounds strange to me.

Rabbi Kahane did lament the fact that Jewish men learned Gemarah before knowing Tanach and this is against what the Gemarah says which says you should first learn the written Bible and then Talmud. It leads to all types of distortions of the religion because without a solid base in the Bible the arguments are meaningless that take place in Talmud. It is like learning constitutional law before learning the constitution and the historical background to the constitution. Because lawyers today don't know the historical framework of the constitution this is why they are so lost and interpet the constitution in a way the founding fathers never would. It is the same thing learning Gemarah without knowing the Jewish Bible. It is meaningless and you interpet the Torah in a way that clearly if you studied the written Bible you would never come to that conclusion.

I myself didn't study the written Bible  in detail until after I was forced out of my parents home because they tried to force me to take medication. I bordered with a family that was from India. They were somewhat toward their tradition so it interested me in my own tradition and going to day school I didn't know the bible that well. They were very nice to me. Nicer then Jews have been to me. I guess they respected because in India they have a similar problem to what is going on in Israel.

[jdl4ever]

It is a known fact that King Solomon sinned with his many foreign wives. They influenced him to commit idolatry in the end.

where did you read that  , no way did Solomon commit IDOLOTRY. and yes you are right he did sin in the fact that he married Pharaoh's daughter (in order to have Pharaoh as an alliance), but because of that (their is a Midrash) that says that on the day he married Pharaoh's daughter, a read came up which later was the city of Rome ( which brought the galut that we are in right now)

King Solomon starting to worship idols is clearly stated in 1 Kings 11: 1-13.  That was the main reason anicent Israel was divided into Northern and Southern kingdoms (with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin in the South). 

1Kings.11

[1]Now King Solomon loved many foreign women: the daughter of Pharaoh, and Moabite, Ammonite, E'domite, Sido'nian, and Hittite women,

[2] from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the people of Israel, "You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you, for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods"; Solomon clung to these in love.
[3] He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart.
[4] For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods; and his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his G-d, as was the heart of David his father.
[5] For Solomon went after Ash'toreth the goddess of the Sido'nians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
[6] So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not wholly follow the LORD, as David his father had done.
[7] Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem.
[8] And so he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
[9]And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the G-d of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,
[10] and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the LORD commanded.
[11] Therefore the LORD said to Solomon, "Since this has been your mind and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you and will give it to your servant.
[12] Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son.
[13] However I will not tear away all the kingdom; but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen."


Only the following Kings of Judah did not worship idols:

Asa (backslid in his last days but never worshipped idols)
Jehosaphat
Uzziah (became a leper finally but never worshipped idols)
Jotham
Hezekiah and
Josiah (Joshiah destroyed the notorious Ashera polls in the high places).

The reforms made by Kings Hezekiah and Josiah delayed the destruction of the southern kingdom for another 133 years.

Kings Amaziah and Joas started well but eventually fell into idolatory.

None of the Northern Kings were loyal to the G-d of Israel and every one them worshipped idols which led them to Assyrian captivity even 133 years before the Babylonian captivity.

722 B.C.E - End of Northern Kingdom by the Assyrian Empire
586 B.C.E - End of Southern Kingdom by the Babylonian Empire

I agree with you Christian Zionist.  Let me clear up something that is going on with my fellow Jewish posters.  There are several ancient commentaries on the bible and many go against the literal interpuitation on a few harsh verses in the bible since they claim that G-d judges the richous much more strictly than he does normal people and considers them worshipping idols when really they only allow their wives to worship idols and are swayed away from G-d a little bit (for example).   However, I feel it wrong that the posters are arguing with ChristianZionist's interpuitations and I feel that he does not need to defend himself since us Jews have an ancient tradition menchaned by one of the most ancient commentators, Rashi that the Bible does not deviate from its literal meaning (this is obvious).  This applies to all circumstances unless it is impossible for the literal meaning to be true or where there is a unanimus tradition that the verse deviates from the literal meaning.   Therefore, one quoting the literal meaning of a biblical verse does not have to defend himself, the burden of proof is on those claiming it does not follow the literal meaning of the verse.  I myself tend to follow the literal meaning of the verses in the bible unless the overwhelming majority of  ancient commentators have a tradition against the literal verse.  This tradition was passed down from my grandfather to myself.   I have not researched this verse yet, but so far I agree with the literal interpuitation of this verse since in my memory it is quoted by Ezra.   

[jdl4ever]

To be honest I looked this up after this was stated and I would like to know where this is discussed in Sanhadrim. First of all the Navi is not at the same level as the 5 books of Moses and the oral Torah was meant to explain aspects of the written Torah. The Oral Torah though always has to prove that it makes sense according to the rules of the 5 Books of Moses.

With the books of the prophets, they weren't written by Moses at the command of g-d, So, I would like to see where in the Gemara this is discussed because to be honest reading you it looks to me that Solomon sinned in stages. At first he only let his wives do it but then he himself to please his wives put up these forms of Idol Worship.  First it says he went after the Ashororeth. Kings Chapter 11 Verse 5. Then in verse 7 it says he built a high place for Chemosh, After this it says that g-d became angry with Solomon because he strayed from g-d. It then says in verse 11 since you have not kept my decrees that I have commanded you I will split the kingdom. So it could be at first he let his wives do it to which it was said he wasn't as righteous as his father. But once he started doing it himself then g-d became angry with him.

I would like to see the Gemarah in Sanhedrim because it doesn't make sense to me. The Gemarah cannot contradict what the Torah (or the prophets) says without a good explanation as to why. Artscroll gives this interpretation but does not cite a source. Is this ONE opinion of many. Also, again the Prophets isn't like the Torah in which there are certain rules that are used to deduce certain laws that are not explained in detail. It sounds strange to me.

Rabbi Kahane did lament the fact that Jewish men learned Gemarah before knowing Tanach and this is against what the Gemarah says which says you should first learn the written Bible and then Talmud. It leads to all types of distortions of the religion because without a solid base in the Bible the arguments are meaningless that take place in Talmud. It is like learning constitutional law before learning the constitution and the historical background to the constitution. Because lawyers today don't know the historical framework of the constitution this is why they are so lost and interpet the constitution in a way the founding fathers never would. It is the same thing learning Gemarah without knowing the Jewish Bible. It is meaningless and you interpet the Torah in a way that clearly if you studied the written Bible you would never come to that conclusion.

I myself didn't study the written Bible  in detail until after I was forced out of my parents home because they tried to force me to take medication. I bordered with a family that was from India. They were somewhat toward their tradition so it interested me in my own tradition and going to day school I didn't know the bible that well. They were very nice to me. Nicer then Jews have been to me. I guess they respected because in India they have a similar problem to what is going on in Israel.

Excellent post adam613.  I have been saying this for years and I personally have witnessed what not studying the Tanach and the Bible does to Jews.  It makes a dumb generation where most learners don't know a thing and most Rabbis are not too much better off.

[jdl4ever]

Yaakov, the one 168 year gap (or something around that number) between the secular chronicles of events and the Jewish calender has been a topic of dispute for thousands of years.  No one has yet given a good answer in my opinion and it is still argued about.  It all gets down to exactly when was the first temple destroyed (and what does the 70 year thing mean, is itstarting when the temple was destroyed or when the Jews were exiled, or not literally 70 years but some hidden message PLUS when does it end).  The jewish commentators argue on this and seder olam is only one opinion.  I don't know all the details since I tried studying this a while back, and it is like getting into an endless pit with so many loose ends and different opinions.  The opinion that years were deleted is a radical opinion that one recent Rabbi introduced, and I don't believe it.   Many state that Darius was a generic name for all persian rulers and didn't correspond to the ruler known today as Darius.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE TANACH DOES NOT SAY EXACTLY WHAT YEAR THE FIRST TEMPLE WAS DESTROYED (the 70 year thing is ambiguous) and I don't think it says either exactly when the second temple was built.  The only way to derive such information is to work backward and some of the info is sketchy.  I think the only verse that indirectly menchans the approximate lengh of the second temple is in Daniel and it says something like 70 weeks is about how long after the first temple until the exile (490 years) and the commentators argue exacly how to fit in these years (again, starting from when, the start of building the second temple, the time of completion of building etc).   I think the most popular approach is that the 490 yrs includes 70 yrs of exile and 420 years the second temple stood according to most commentaries (forget about the secular dates).  But the secular dates are different so hence the controversy.

[Christian Zionist]

It is very interesting to explore the mysteries of Tanak with my fellow Jewish posters here. 

The book of Job is a mystery.  Some scholars argue that Job was a grand son of the Patriarch Jacob (son of the tribal leader Issachar - Genesis 46:13).  Some say he was a gentile and a descendant of Esau.

Thanks jdl4ever, adam613 and Yacov for your explanations!

[MarZutra]

I too wish to thank all of you as you are far more schooled in Torah/Tanach than I.  I find it very enlightening to read these posts.  My Orthodox friend had once told me about a book by Elahu Shatz "The Proofs of the Accuracies of the Bible"  I have never read it but I understand it is very well written. 

In any event, thanks for the Torah knowledge and keep up the good work....

[Christian Zionist]

It is very interesting to explore the mysteries of Tanach with my fellow Jewish posters here. 

The book of Job is a mystery.  Some scholars argue that Job was a grand son of the Patriarch Jacob (son of the tribal leader Issachar - Genesis 46:13).  Some say he was a gentile and a descendant of Esau.

Thanks jdl4ever, adam613 and Yacov for your explanations!

Some say it is all allegorical. I think Chaim said that Job was Abraham's father reincarnated at The Splitting of The Red Sea. If it wasn't him, then it was another Chaim, Sanhedrin Member Rabbi Chaim Richman of The Temple Institute on his Arutz 7 show Temple Talk.

I don't think that the book of Job is an allegory. Because Ezekiel 14:20 mentions Job with Noah and Daniel.    One of the bonafide prophets of the Tanak referring  Job with 2 other Biblical historical figures makes it clear that the book of Job is historical and Job himself was considered as a historical person in ancient Israel.

Ezekiel 14:20 "Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord G-d, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall deliver their own souls only by their righteousness"

[Fruit of thy loins]

The literal rendering of the book, 'Song of Songs', reads like a eulogy of inter-racial love: 'I am black, yet comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem ... do not despise me for my swarthiness ...' etc.

For which reason you sometimes see in English translations of the Tanakh an allegorical rendering.

Anyway the entire Bible is useless without the commentaries ... however gentiles are not supposed to read the commentaries which means they are forever condemned to misunderstand the Bible (myself included of course).

Which is why I strongly suspect the Noahide precepts require that gentiles do not read the Bible at all, since the Torah is the property of the Jews, and it is theft of the highest order for a gentile to possess a copy of the Torah and read it.

[MarZutra]

The literal rendering of the book, 'Song of Songs', reads like a eulogy of inter-racial love: 'I am black, yet comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem ... do not despise me for my swarthiness ...' etc.

For which reason you sometimes see in English translations of the Tanakh an allegorical rendering.

Anyway the entire Bible is useless without the commentaries ... however gentiles are not supposed to read the commentaries which means they are forever condemned to misunderstand the Bible (myself included of course).

Which is why I strongly suspect the Noahide precepts require that gentiles do not read the Bible at all, since the Torah is the property of the Jews, and it is theft of the highest order for a gentile to possess a copy of the Torah and read it.

You make a very good point.  I have never thought of it that way....  I knew that the Torah only applied to Jews and not Gentiles.