What Do You Think Of Pre-Marital Intimacy And/Or Touching?

[Katie]

Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?

Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.

Yes but seeing an attractive can  also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?

No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.

I don't believe that either.

Don't believe what

That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.

I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.

I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...

I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.

haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous

[Americanhero1]

Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?

Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.

Yes but seeing an attractive can  also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?

No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.

I don't believe that either.

Don't believe what

That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.

I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.

I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...

I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.

haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous

No one said it leads to sexual relations. But it is a fact that a man gets sexual pleasure from shaking the hand of an attractive woman which is why the rabbis banned it for Jews.

Not all men get pleasure from shaking a beautiful woman hand

[Vito]

Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?

Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.

Yes but seeing an attractive can  also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?

No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.

I don't believe that either.

Don't believe what

That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.

I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.

I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...

I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.

haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous

No one said it leads to sexual relations. But it is a fact that a man gets sexual pleasure from shaking the hand of an attractive woman which is why the rabbis banned it for Jews.

Yacov, I've never had sexual pleasure from shaking an attractive woman's hand... but all a man needs to do is look at an attractive woman and have sexual thoughts, from what I understand having a sexual thought is just as bad as the action. Must you not look at attractive women either?

[Americanhero1]

Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?

Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.

Yes but seeing an attractive can  also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?

No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.

I don't believe that either.

Don't believe what

That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.

I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.

I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...

I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.

haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous

No one said it leads to sexual relations. But it is a fact that a man gets sexual pleasure from shaking the hand of an attractive woman which is why the rabbis banned it for Jews.

Yacov, I've never had sexual pleasure from shaking an attractive woman's hand... but all a man needs to do is look at an attractive woman and have sexual thoughts, from what I understand having a sexual thought is just as bad as the action. Must you not look at attractive women either?

You're not supposed to gaze at a woman's beauty, not even at her small finger. I personally just refrain from touching.

You cannot look at a Beautiful woman at all?

[Katie]

Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?

Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.

Yes but seeing an attractive can  also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?

No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.

I don't believe that either.

Don't believe what

That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.

I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.

I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...

I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.

haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous

No one said it leads to sexual relations. But it is a fact that a man gets sexual pleasure from shaking the hand of an attractive woman which is why the rabbis banned it for Jews.

Yacov, I've never had sexual pleasure from shaking an attractive woman's hand... but all a man needs to do is look at an attractive woman and have sexual thoughts, from what I understand having a sexual thought is just as bad as the action. Must you not look at attractive women either?

You're not supposed to gaze at a woman's beauty, not even at her small finger. I personally just refrain from touching.

that sucks for you

[Americanhero1]

Hey if there is a beautiful female on the other side of the room i am going to look

[Americanhero1]

Even if you have thought about the female it does not mean you will act on those feelings

[Americanhero1]

Hey if there is a beautiful female on the other side of the room i am going to look

I when i say am going to look i dont me Gawk at her I will notice her in the room

[Americanhero1]

Hey if there is a beautiful female on the other side of the room i am going to look

I when i say am going to look i dont me Gawk at her I will notice her in the room

So will I but I'm just saying what the strict Jewish Law is. I'm not perfect. I don't believe this law even applies to Gentiles. I think Judaism allows Gentiles to even kiss before marriage and some say they can have sex before marriage.

Some say that people can have sex before marriage but it has to be hard on any male when they are going through puberty not to think about females even in the Jewish religion

[q_q_]

Hey if there is a beautiful female on the other side of the room i am going to look

I when i say am going to look i dont me Gawk at her I will notice her in the room

So will I but I'm just saying what the strict Jewish Law is. I'm not perfect. I don't believe this law even applies to Gentiles. I think Judaism allows Gentiles to even kiss before marriage and some say they can have sex before marriage.

Some say that people can have sex before marriage but it has to be hard on any male when they are going through puberty not to think about females even in the Jewish religion

maybe it's possible if you don't know what one looks like(aside from face)

[Dr. Dan]

And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.

Shomer Negia is a beautiful thing...However, it is a fence by the wise rabbis to prevent sexual immorality.

[Dr. Dan]

Is no kissing also a fence or just no touching?

The Torah rule is basically no pre marital sex...

No kissing is a fence also.

The truth is some men and women need a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge fence and will simply not touch or gaze at someone of the opposite sex.

[shimon]

Is no kissing also a fence or just no touching?

The Torah rule is basically no pre marital sex...

No kissing is a fence also.

The truth is some men and women need a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge fence and will simply not touch or gaze at someone of the opposite sex.

where does the Torah ban pre marital sex

People here are saying the Torah bans so many things when in reality its the rabbis.



Im not saying it is a good thins but there is no quote banning pre marital sex. But the women most always go to the mikvah. And if a man sleeps with her during niddah he gets karet

People here have to start reviewing the torah

[q_q_]

Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.

Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't. 

The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says

pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly.  They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.

[Dr. Dan]

Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.

Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't. 

The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says

pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly.  They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.

....and make a fence around the Torah and sanctify it.

[q_q_]

Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.

Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't. 

The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says

pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly.  They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.

....and make a fence around the Torah and sanctify it.

that's a nice poetic touch, but it's not in this translation

http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly.  They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
2. Shimon the Righteous was one of the last survivors of the Great Assembly.  He used to say: On three things the world is sustained: on the Torah, on the (Temple) service, and on deeds of loving kindness.

[Dr. Dan]

Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.

Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't. 

The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says

pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly.  They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.

....and make a fence around the Torah and sanctify it.

that's a nice poetic touch, but it's not in this translation

http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly.  They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
2. Shimon the Righteous was one of the last survivors of the Great Assembly.  He used to say: On three things the world is sustained: on the Torah, on the (Temple) service, and on deeds of loving kindness.

hehe..maybe it was teh conservative translation...

[q_q_]

Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.

Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't. 

The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says

pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly.  They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.

....and make a fence around the Torah and sanctify it.

that's a nice poetic touch, but it's not in this translation

http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly.  They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
2. Shimon the Righteous was one of the last survivors of the Great Assembly.  He used to say: On three things the world is sustained: on the Torah, on the (Temple) service, and on deeds of loving kindness.

hehe..maybe it was teh conservative translation...

they might like their poetry but they don't sanctify the torah

[shimon]

Shimon-
The Torah gives the rabbis authority to make laws. Rabbinical laws are Torah.

Whether you like it or not.. And no doubt you don't. 

The mishna has oral tradition from sinai, it says

pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly.  They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.

what are you talking about . why are you saying lashon harah about me that i dont like the rabbis decisions. im just saying theres no quote from the torah banning pre marital sex. what a good job to make some one feel bad after shavout.

[q_q_]

you may want to correct the quoting of your post.

Torah can mean talmud.  Mishna.  Even a halachic work like RAMBAM.

So if something is in the talmud, and you say it is not in the torah, it implies that you do not accept the talmud as Torah. As your torah, instruction, law.  Looks a bit karaite.

And also, it's not of any practical consequence if something is a law in one place and not mentioned in another place.. Because we accept both places.     If your post were to have any practical consequence, it would only be so if you only accept what is in the written.

I know you're not a karaite, you're just a bit of a shmoe. 

 


 

[Dr. Dan]

Listen...there are some arguements for and against premarital sex.

Idealistically, everyone should be remain a virgin until they get married.  Realistically, it's another story.  Given the environment, society, and temptations, it's not that simple for a man to stay a virgin until he gets married. It's a little bit easier for a woman, I believe.

If a man chooses to willy nilly have premarital sex, it may affect them in a very negative way in the sense he might treat all women including his wife like a piece of meat and not be loyal to her.  On a practical end, sometimes premarital sex for a man helps him "get it out of his system" so that he would be more true and faithful for his future wife.

I personally will not argue for either thing.  All I will say is that men ought to treat women with full respect and not treat them like a piece of meat. Look for a wife and love her and have a family with her and look at no one else or desire anyone else.

My point is, a man should do whatever it takes for him to be able to be that way and love his wife.  If it means that he has to get it out of his system before he settles down, as long as he doesn't forget his way, then it make sense to me.  However, there is a danger when a man does that for healthy and mental reasons.

If a man is able to sustain a family at a young age and be able to have enough control to not be with other women once he is married, then he should do that.

An idealistic society would never encourage premarital sex, I would support movements and groups that do that for their environment.

[shimon]

you may want to correct the quoting of your post.

Torah can mean talmud.  Mishna.  Even a halachic work like RAMBAM.

So if something is in the talmud, and you say it is not in the torah, it implies that you do not accept the talmud as Torah. As your torah, instruction, law.  Looks a bit karaite.

And also, it's not of any practical consequence if something is a law in one place and not mentioned in another place.. Because we accept both places.     If your post were to have any practical consequence, it would only be so if you only accept what is in the written.

I know you're not a karaite, you're just a bit of a shmoe. 

 


 

fine shmoe were in the 5 books of Moses does it prohibit pre marital sex. In my opinion it is not that important as people think, because why would the Torah go through all these rare cases like having sex with a step mom and not talk about pre marital sex

[q_q_]

you may want to correct the quoting of your post.

Torah can mean talmud.  Mishna.  Even a halachic work like RAMBAM.

So if something is in the talmud, and you say it is not in the torah, it implies that you do not accept the talmud as Torah. As your torah, instruction, law.  Looks a bit karaite.

And also, it's not of any practical consequence if something is a law in one place and not mentioned in another place.. Because we accept both places.     If your post were to have any practical consequence, it would only be so if you only accept what is in the written.

I know you're not a karaite, you're just a bit of a shmoe. 

 

fine shmoe were in the 5 books of Moses does it prohibit pre marital sex. In my opinion it is not that important as people think, because why would the Torah go through all these rare cases like having sex with a step mom and not talk about pre marital sex

I don't disagree with you.. I am not saying it is in the 5 books.

Infact, this controversial article, on a dodgy website, makes one or two interesting but slightly twisted arguments.
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/02/forbidding-the.html

along the lines of, people had concubines and it says that they don't have to be jewish..

the article makes out that a concubine is just some woman.. i.e. a ticket for pre-marital and extra-marital sex. But it would be like a lower level of wife..  It's a permanent thing.. (not like the early islammic 1 hour marriage!)

prob less paper work ;-)

jews in some arab lands did tend to have many wives,  prob not concubines though.

ashkenazim don't, since a rabbi banned it a few hundred years ago, since the society we live in detests and frowns upon such behaviour, and it is not a religious duty of any kind.
I think it's useful though, for multiplying!

I hadn't heard that they don't have to e jewish though..

ANYHOW
I can think of a very good reason why sex outside marriage is forbidden.

You are either putting your semen into the woman, or wasting it somewhere. Either way it's bad..

a)creating a child outside of wedlock..
deut 23:2
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." 
so crtainly a bad thing

b)spilling semen is forbidden..

just looking this up now,
there is also, looking at deut ch 22
 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;  29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
note- 22:28 is not talking about rape.  if he rapes her 22:25, he is killed.

[shimon]

you may want to correct the quoting of your post.

Torah can mean talmud.  Mishna.  Even a halachic work like RAMBAM.

So if something is in the talmud, and you say it is not in the torah, it implies that you do not accept the talmud as Torah. As your torah, instruction, law.  Looks a bit karaite.

And also, it's not of any practical consequence if something is a law in one place and not mentioned in another place.. Because we accept both places.     If your post were to have any practical consequence, it would only be so if you only accept what is in the written.

I know you're not a karaite, you're just a bit of a shmoe. 

 

fine shmoe were in the 5 books of Moses does it prohibit pre marital sex. In my opinion it is not that important as people think, because why would the Torah go through all these rare cases like having sex with a step mom and not talk about pre marital sex

I don't disagree with you.. I am not saying it is in the 5 books.

Infact, this controversial article, on a dodgy website, makes one or two interesting but slightly twisted arguments.
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/02/forbidding-the.html

along the lines of, people had concubines and it says that they don't have to be jewish..

the article makes out that a concubine is just some woman.. i.e. a ticket for pre-marital and extra-marital sex. But it would be like a lower level of wife..  It's a permanent thing.. (not like the early islammic 1 hour marriage!)

prob less paper work ;-)

jews in some arab lands did tend to have many wives,  prob not concubines though.

ashkenazim don't, since a rabbi banned it a few hundred years ago, since the society we live in detests and frowns upon such behaviour, and it is not a religious duty of any kind.
I think it's useful though, for multiplying!

I hadn't heard that they don't have to e jewish though..

ANYHOW
I can think of a very good reason why sex outside marriage is forbidden.

You are either putting your semen into the woman, or wasting it somewhere. Either way it's bad..

a)creating a child outside of wedlock..
deut 23:2
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." 
so crtainly a bad thing

b)spilling semen is forbidden..

just looking this up now,
there is also, looking at deut ch 22
 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;  29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
note- 22:28 is not talking about rape.  if he rapes her 22:25, he is killed.

ok good post. But if you are born to two unmarried parents you are not considered a bastard or mamzer.
And having more than one wife is sometimes a mitzvah if the wife was married to your brother but he dies

[q_q_]

yep.. I was thinking at the time I paste that translation that the definition of mamzer had some issue.

indeed..  A mamzer is a specific form of bastard.  There is no concept of bastard - at least in tenach..

a bastard is a child born out of wedlock. Or rather, of parents that have not been wed to each other.

a mamzer is a child born out of an adulterous act.. (at least one partner married, but not to the one they had sex with)..

so if neither are married.. i.e. pre marital sex. it's a bastard but not a mamzer..

right?


Regarding the tenach and pre matiral sex though.. That pasuk by telling "the pair" to get married, is implying they should have been married. 
good to know there's nothing wrong with the child though!

Whereas  I read somewhere that the label of mamzer lasts for something like 10 generations..