What Do You Think Of Pre-Marital Intimacy And/Or Touching?

[q_q_]

So why couldn't they pick a different number for those functions?

'cos other numbers don't work for it!!

the circumference of a circle = 2*pi*r    (or pi * diameter   , same thing 'cos diameter is 2*r)

if you change pi from 3.1415926.......    to  5.4692342   Then you get the wrong value

similarly, the area of a circle is pi * r^2

r is the radius of the circle

[Nic Brookes]

So why couldn't they pick a different number for those functions?

Nobody made it up, it's a fundamental truth. Maths just WORKS because it is a fundamental truth. For example if I have a floor which is 5 tiles by 7 tiles it has 35 tiles as 5 x 7 = 35. If someone had just made up a different number for what 5 x 7 is maths would not work. Maths is fundamental, created by God, not humans.

[Katie]

Does shaking a women's hand make you aroused?

Yes, it does make a man aroused if the woman is attractive.

Yes but seeing an attractive can  also makes a man aroused. So should we require all women to stay in private?

No one can honestly tell you that in today's world a handshake will lead to sexual activity.

I don't believe that either.

Don't believe what

That a handshake automatically lead to sexual activity / immorality.

I never said it does. I said it leads to a sexual feeling in your body just like when the woman hairdresser washes your hair.

I hope you find and marry your wife real soon, because it must be very hard for you to live under such restrictions / sensorial deprivation, especially at your age...

I could never make it. Hats off to you Yacov.

haha i agree for sure... and how can people say that a handshake will lead to sexual relations? thats just rediculous

No one said it leads to sexual relations. But it is a fact that a man gets sexual pleasure from shaking the hand of an attractive woman which is why the rabbis banned it for Jews.

its pretty rediculous to ban shaking hands, thats just a social norm in america today you shake hands, if u dont people will look at you like ur a freak.. if ur comfortable with that then fine. and if ur so insecure or so hyper-sexual that u think about sex so much that even touching someone's hand for 2 seconds gives you all this sexual pleasure then theres something wrong with you ... if people want sexual pleasure they'll get it, no point in banning something as innocent as handshaking

[q_q_]

<snip>
its pretty rediculous to ban shaking hands, thats just a social norm in america today you shake hands, if u dont people will look at you like ur a freak.. if ur comfortable with that then fine. and if ur so insecure or so hyper-sexual that u think about sex so much that even touching someone's hand for 2 seconds gives you all this sexual pleasure then theres something wrong with you ... if people want sexual pleasure they'll get it, no point in banning something as innocent as handshaking

Ridiculous to ban it, but I don't think it's ridiculous to avoid it. There's sex and there's a small level of sexual feeling. It could cause a small level of sexual feeling.

Guys that kiss like other guys when the greet them (like arabs do) are a real nuisance. Very rare thankfully, but  happens. I know a rabbi that does, it has caused most people to avoid him completely.

I have a relative that does it, and I feel obliged to go along with it when he approaches me for it, because if i don't, it looks like i'm uncomfortable with it, which suggests that I think he's a bit gay. Which is an offensive suggestion. So to avoid that, I go along with it. I don't kiss him obviously , he just grabs people and gives them a big kiss on the cheek.

[Katie]

<snip>
its pretty rediculous to ban shaking hands, thats just a social norm in america today you shake hands, if u dont people will look at you like ur a freak.. if ur comfortable with that then fine. and if ur so insecure or so hyper-sexual that u think about sex so much that even touching someone's hand for 2 seconds gives you all this sexual pleasure then theres something wrong with you ... if people want sexual pleasure they'll get it, no point in banning something as innocent as handshaking

Ridiculous to ban it, but I don't think it's ridiculous to avoid it. There's sex and there's a small level of sexual feeling. It could cause a small level of sexual feeling.

Guys that kiss like other guys when the greet them (like arabs do) are a real nuisance. Very rare thankfully, but  happens. I know a rabbi that does, it has caused most people to avoid him completely.

I have a relative that does it, and I feel obliged to go along with it when he approaches me for it, because if i don't, it looks like i'm uncomfortable with it, which suggests that I think he's a bit gay. Which is an offensive suggestion. So to avoid that, I go along with it. I don't kiss him obviously , he just grabs people and gives them a big kiss on the cheek.

yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i  do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...

[q_q_]

yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i  do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...

in western culture

It's different for women kissing each other on the cheek like you do, than for men. The latter is a very foreign import, probably from arabs.

Are you telling me that in france, men kiss men on the cheek?

what cultures other than arab do that?

I have seen a sephardi kissing the hand of an important rabbi.

I have read that in some remote parts of south america, the tribesmen greet each other with a scrotal handshake - that's one handshake that would preferably be performed without a firm hand and strong/confident squeeze.
I wonder if and how they punish a man that betrays the trust and really squeezes!

[Vito]

yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i  do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...

in western culture

It's different for women kissing each other on the cheek like you do, than for men. The latter is a very foreign import, probably from arabs.

Are you telling me that in france, men kiss men on the cheek?

what cultures other than arab do that?

I have seen a Sefaradi kissing the hand of an important rabbi.

I have read that in some remote parts of south america, the tribesmen greet each other with a scrotal handshake - that's one handshake that would preferably be performed without a firm hand and strong/confident squeeze.
I wonder if and how they punish a man that betrays the trust and really squeezes!

I don't know if French men kiss each other on the cheek, but Italian men do for sure - the double cheek kiss. My Israeli friend's father did that to me too when he was leaving for Florida (he's a Moroccan Jew). I'm pretty sure it's a Mediterranean thing..   

[Americanhero1]

<snip>
its pretty rediculous to ban shaking hands, thats just a social norm in america today you shake hands, if u dont people will look at you like ur a freak.. if ur comfortable with that then fine. and if ur so insecure or so hyper-sexual that u think about sex so much that even touching someone's hand for 2 seconds gives you all this sexual pleasure then theres something wrong with you ... if people want sexual pleasure they'll get it, no point in banning something as innocent as handshaking

Ridiculous to ban it, but I don't think it's ridiculous to avoid it. There's sex and there's a small level of sexual feeling. It could cause a small level of sexual feeling.

Guys that kiss like other guys when the greet them (like arabs do) are a real nuisance. Very rare thankfully, but  happens. I know a rabbi that does, it has caused most people to avoid him completely.

I have a relative that does it, and I feel obliged to go along with it when he approaches me for it, because if i don't, it looks like i'm uncomfortable with it, which suggests that I think he's a bit gay. Which is an offensive suggestion. So to avoid that, I go along with it. I don't kiss him obviously , he just grabs people and gives them a big kiss on the cheek.

yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i  do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...

I know in Croatia they kiss on both cheeks

[Katie]

yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i  do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...

in western culture

It's different for women kissing each other on the cheek like you do, than for men. The latter is a very foreign import, probably from arabs.

Are you telling me that in france, men kiss men on the cheek?

what cultures other than arab do that?

I have seen a Sefaradi kissing the hand of an important rabbi.

I have read that in some remote parts of south america, the tribesmen greet each other with a scrotal handshake - that's one handshake that would preferably be performed without a firm hand and strong/confident squeeze.
I wonder if and how they punish a man that betrays the trust and really squeezes!

yea men do, i have friends in france and been there many times, and yea guys do.. its not considered gay or anything.... and they werent arabs lol... and so do girls. its cool

scrotal handshakes.. sounds fun! now im sure the rabbis wouldn't ban that one 

[Americanhero1]

yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i  do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...

in western culture

It's different for women kissing each other on the cheek like you do, than for men. The latter is a very foreign import, probably from arabs.

Are you telling me that in france, men kiss men on the cheek?

what cultures other than arab do that?

I have seen a Sefaradi kissing the hand of an important rabbi.

I have read that in some remote parts of south america, the tribesmen greet each other with a scrotal handshake - that's one handshake that would preferably be performed without a firm hand and strong/confident squeeze.
I wonder if and how they punish a man that betrays the trust and really squeezes!

yea men do, i have friends in france and been there many times, and yea guys do.. its not considered gay or anything.... and they werent arabs lol... and so do girls. its cool

scrotal handshakes.. sounds fun! now im sure the rabbis wouldn't ban that one 

I know it is normal it's not gay at all most people do it to relatives and close friends
Scrotal handshakes

[Ambiorix]

All men in the Roman language speaking countries of Europe kiss eachother on the cheek when they greet.
In Belgium, The French speaking Walloons do this.
We Flemish, never do this...

[q_q_]

it's unhygienic

the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people  in america have herpes

Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.

I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores.  EVen when dormant one can catch them.  She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.

She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE".  which was a bit embarassing.  Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton!  It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay..   Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!

[q_q_]

it's unhygienic

the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people  in america have herpes

Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.

I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores.  EVen when dormant one can catch them.  She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.

She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE".  which was a bit embarassing.  Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton!  It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay..   Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!

It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.

well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.

[Katie]

it's unhygienic

the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people  in america have herpes

Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.

I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores.  EVen when dormant one can catch them.  She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.

She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE".  which was a bit embarassing.  Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton!  It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay..   Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!

It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.

well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.

But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.

they'll think ur into milfs or even worse..... GILFS.... hahaha

oh well hugging is fun though! and so is kissing. u cant live ur life scared of what other people think lol

[q_q_]

But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.

Nobody saw me kissing an old woman. They saw the old woman kissing me. If I did kiss her, it was after she very loudly ordered me to. And it was a family event , and she kisses everybody, so nobody would have thought anything. (apart from noticing that i'm not a kissing type)

If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting.  You made a flat out statement before.


note-  There was no hug either. Though I suppose there should have been to make it look more sociable and less forced.  I have done bear hugs when I was a kid, but not on her. And even those I stopped after I hurt a (male) relative's ribs. Hugging men isn't my thing. and hugging women - whether they are 29 or 90, has a minor issue, they have breasts.  Hugging a 90 year old woman, you would have to not think about it. And hugging a 29 year old one, would give a sexual feeling, so if trying to avoid sexual feelings, you wouldn't hug one or look at one.

Fact is though , any avoidance of sexual feeling, would normally come after one is so religious that it's visibly very obvious.  Beard , payot, big kippa , in yeshiva, black hat rabbi. So mitzva observance is obviously going to be on full blast .    You are unusual in having your priorities set out differently.

[q_q_]

If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting.  You made a flat out statement before.

I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.

Well then you should have included those exceptions in your statement where you wrote.

"It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband"

It was indeed that category. She has many children and grandchildren.

There are really many situations where a culture may include kissing outside of your now amended rule. 

If you have some hard halachic rule, then all exceptions should be stated, and personal preference doesn't come into it.

If you make up your own rule, then really it all comes down to personality.  I can tell you that i'm a bit unusual in that I do not consider kissing to be sexual.. I consider it an irrational unhygienic nuisance, and an extremely stupid, unnecessary, problematic way of obtaining skin/flesh contact, and fairly poor contact in terms of surface area, too.
Mouths are for putting food in and letting a voice out.  I have no interest in sampling a woman's saliva any more than I do of drinking the water that a woman has washed her feet in.  I am not attracted to bodily fluids like saliva just because they happen to pour out of the body of a woman.  I am just not attracted to saliva  - female or male. Or breath.

So I might even be more difficult than you ;-)

But there are girls, the type that watch star trek and admire vulcans(spock, tuvok), that would probably agree with me.  People just aren't brave enough to admit it.  I know a few girls that would be horrified at the thought of somebody putting their face against theirs, lips on lips, risk of bad breath , saliva, a zoomed in view of a little spot, who knows what ,  e.t.c. !

I have a sex drive like anybody else. Not a kiss drive.

That's my personality though..  I wouldn't expect other people to adopt my view. Not everybody can be logical, and some people really do have an attraction to kisses, and a numbness to the saliva and breath. Most people infact..

So bottom line is all that counts in terms of what jews should adopt, is Halacha - jewish law.

So far you have not quoted anything. No source.

And even if something is jewish law, it doesn't mean we police it (of course you only refer to policing it on jews in israel).

The reason why rabbi kahane would have banned intermarriage were he PM, was because it is a big and real cause of drops in jewish  numbers, and it's not a private thing.  You can't and shouldn't try policing what people do in their home.. It would even turn people away.  And rabbi kahane said that, he said that we are a sick people and can only be healed gradually, so he wouldn't go in and enforce all jewish laws.  (and even if we had reached the point of him as PM and us healthy/religious, then  I don't think  he owuld have tried to police what people do in their homes. I know you probably mean it as fun, but that was not clear in your original post, and given the size of the thread, and the continuously visible subject, it will never be clear).

[Americanhero1]

If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting.  You made a flat out statement before.

I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.

What do you mean you cant Hug your Aunt?

[q_q_]

If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting.  You made a flat out statement before.

I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.

What do you mean you cant Hug your Aunt?

HE MEANS HE DOESN'T THINK ONE SHOULD HUG THEIR AUNT
and HE MEANS HE DOESN'T HUG HIS AUNT

What the hell do you think he meant.

Many people don't hug their aunts. I don't!

don't let these things suprise you so much.

[Americanhero1]

If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting.  You made a flat out statement before.

I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.

What do you mean you cant Hug your Aunt?

HE MEANS HE DOESN'T THINK ONE SHOULD HUG THEIR AUNT
and HE MEANS HE DOESN'T HUG HIS AUNT

What the hell do you think he meant.

Many people don't hug their aunts. I don't!

don't let these things suprise you so much.

I am not asking him why he doesn't. I was asking why are you permitted to hug your Mom and Grandmother but you are not permitted to hug your Aunt.

[q_q_]

I am not asking him why he doesn't. I was asking why are you permitted to hug your Mom and Grandmother but you are not permitted to hug your Aunt.

The reason is because that's Jewish Law.

If you think so then you should be able to quote a source
Preferably textual, from a classic jewish law book.  Like where in the shulchan aruch, or where in the mishneh torah.

[Katie]

If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting.  You made a flat out statement before.

I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.

lol you can't hug ur aunt? thats rediculous

[q_q_]

If this old woman was your mother or grandmother or aunt or great aunt, would you say it is forbidden? How about if it is in a family setting.  You made a flat out statement before.

I think it's only permitted for your mother or grandmother. You're not supposed to hug your aunt.

lol you can't hug ur aunt? thats rediculous

spelt ridiculous.

I had a friend that pronounced it  rediculous - once, that was because he was experimenting with a sense of "humor".

[Dr. Dan]

<snip>
its pretty rediculous to ban shaking hands, thats just a social norm in america today you shake hands, if u dont people will look at you like ur a freak.. if ur comfortable with that then fine. and if ur so insecure or so hyper-sexual that u think about sex so much that even touching someone's hand for 2 seconds gives you all this sexual pleasure then theres something wrong with you ... if people want sexual pleasure they'll get it, no point in banning something as innocent as handshaking

Ridiculous to ban it, but I don't think it's ridiculous to avoid it. There's sex and there's a small level of sexual feeling. It could cause a small level of sexual feeling.

Guys that kiss like other guys when the greet them (like arabs do) are a real nuisance. Very rare thankfully, but  happens. I know a rabbi that does, it has caused most people to avoid him completely.

I have a relative that does it, and I feel obliged to go along with it when he approaches me for it, because if i don't, it looks like i'm uncomfortable with it, which suggests that I think he's a bit gay. Which is an offensive suggestion. So to avoid that, I go along with it. I don't kiss him obviously , he just grabs people and gives them a big kiss on the cheek.

yeaa but in many places its normal to kiss people as a greeting.. i mean i  do with close friends, family friends, stuff like that usually, its just something u do if u havnt seen someone in a long time.. plus i know in france and other places in europe its normal to kiss on the cheek as a greeting, in france its called la bise so its just a question of ur culture i guess and how you're raised...

i generally try to avoid kissing total strangers when gretting them..especially women..and i'm not shomer negia..

But it's funny actually..just the other day i was walking the streets and some asian girl starts flirting with me in order for me to "give to the children" of Latin America...I was really uncomfortable by the way she was touching me in her friendly manner..it was really invasive.

And at work today, one of the secretaries friends came to the office and she was looking at me raping me with her eyes...it made me feel really uncomfortable to the point that i started showing everyone pics of my gf just to give her no hope and walk away.

[Dr. Dan]

it's unhygienic

the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people  in america have herpes

Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.

I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores.  EVen when dormant one can catch them.  She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.

She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE".  which was a bit embarassing.  Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton!  It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay..   Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!

It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.

well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.

But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.

i would agree if he has his kipa on...but if it isn't on and there is no indication that phsycially he's a Jew or religious Jew, then kissing an old woman isn't a big deal..

[Dr. Dan]

it's unhygienic

the likelygood of catching a cold sore is probably equal to that of catching Herpes(an STD). And 20% of people  in america have herpes

Herpes is typically spread from oral sex quite often. (as well as genital-genital contact). Or cold sores by mouth to mouth contact.

I know a woman in her 90s that kisses lots of people, and she gets cold sores.  EVen when dormant one can catch them.  She doesn't kiss me 'cos I told her not to because of that risk.

She is a bit deaf and naiive, and not knowing what she was suggesting, or maybe to get back at me for shunning her, she shouted out, "I WON'T KISS YOU BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE".  which was a bit embarassing.  Fortunately, I hope, most people knew that she didn't know what that statement might mean anyway. And I think it was forgotton!  It's obvious that I am not even remotely gay..   Of course, if I delay getting married, then people might start wondering!

It's also wrong of her to kiss you becuase you're a man and not her husband.

well if your argument is that kissing can invoke sexual feeling, I can assure you that it doesn't in me
a)I don't have a kiss drive
b)90 year old women do more to cause me to not be turned on than any self control ever could.

But if someone sees you kissing an old woman, they may get the impression that it's okay to kiss women so you should refrain from kissing women altogether except for you wife. That's what Chaim said about hugging and why you shouldn't hug an old woman.

they'll think ur into milfs or even worse..... GILFS.... hahaha

oh well hugging is fun though! and so is kissing. u cant live ur life scared of what other people think lol

I think you are wrong from a religious standpoint.

If the tradition and rule of Orthodox Jews is not to do those things, you dont' want to give antoher Orthodox Jew the impression that you are allowed to do it...