Poll

If someone is a Gentile but doesn't know it, do you tell him?

Yes.
10 (58.8%)
No.
1 (5.9%)
I'm not sure.
6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Jews and Gentiles  (Read 4942 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: Jews and Gentiles
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2008, 05:24:15 PM »
 Well, you know, this is REALLY HARD for me. HARD. My Roots going back to the way b4 1400's in Portugal with forced catholic conversions, that have effected my personal Jewish roots for generations.. Inquisition.. For ie: I ALWAYS want to know EXACTLY what people are thinking of me. I ABHOR when missionized, or preached to. DisLoyalty is an ABOMINATION to me, and I cannot stay friends with a person, AT ALL, if they have backstabbed, been disloyal, or refuse to take up for me. I almost ALWAYS need some type reassuring from CLOSE family, or the few friends that I have, that I am doing right.  I CANNOT take being under a personal spot-light, and DEF. get truly AFRAID when someone approaches me, if I perhaps have offended them, I almost feel scared that they will kill me, I KNOW this sounds NUTS, ( I CONSTANTLY have to work on this, EVERYDAY, all the time). There are too MANY little things like this, that I have had to pray and ask G-d to please help me deal with, each one is a battle.

  When people tell me that I am not a Jew, because of how I present myself, (or whatever) I get choked up and cannot breathe, if people tell me that I am not a good "christian" I get just as choked up. It is NOT easy having come from a line that are Cryptos, both faiths are in our roots and family now. My whole family is so secretive, Right away, if I meet a person that I REALLY like, I tell the person ALL of the BAD points about my character, so that they know straightaway.  Family's that are crypto, are TOUGH to deal with, they share NOTHING with even each-other.

  So, HOW DOES one tell if a person is Jew or Gentile? Because of my little insecurities, I take people at their word, and warm up to them instantly.. I suppose It doesent matter to me, AS LONG as the persons intentions are true, and they mean WELL.  I suppose this would really bother a person that has BOTH mother AND father that are Jewish.. perhaps people 'want' to be Jewish? I dont know.  I would suggest to a person like this to get all of his roots and find out for himself.  This is really hard for me, I opened myself up here, because Q's like this get to me. TY.

I can't relate to all your emotions..

But surely you are aware that the rule is.

If your mother is jewish, you are jewish.
One may be a bad jew or a good jew, but a jew is a jew.

Other "movements" that do not believe the torah is from sinai, can invent who is a jew, make it cultural, patrilineal, e.t.c.

perhaps one could say "culturally jewish" or "ethnically jewish" though those terms are problematic. And it doesn't make one jewish or not jewish, it has no bearing.  But if that is your "jewishness" then it is better to say that than to say Jewish.

anybody who wants to become jewish can. So anybody who "feels jewish" but isn't, is welcome to become jewish, if they are serious.. It's a long process.  

Nobody should be offended by being told they are jewish or not jewish. Or by being jewish or not jewish..

If you try to present yourself as a good christian, and as a jew , then you're going to run into problems. You might resolve it by saying you believe christianity and happen to have some jewish ethnicity, and like many christians here - sympathy for israel.  Or by becoming orthodox and converting - which would be a hard route. If marriage certificates can prove to a rabbinate that you are jewish, then it would be easier, you would just have to reject christianity.   You would have problems if you try to be both at the same time..
If rabbis do not accept you as jewish, becuse of insufficient proof. Then you may as well say Ethnically jewish - NOT JEWISH - but perhaps proud of your roots and whatever. While believing in whatever religion it is you believe in - chrstianity or whatever.   You could be a torah believing noachide, but then don't pretend to be a christian .  
If you claim to be of 2 religions, it will be too hard, you won't fit into any community..

maybe there are councillors that specialise in healing members of crypto families that have this problem.
 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 05:26:52 PM by q_q_ »

Offline AsheDina

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5665
  • PSALMS 129:5 "ZION" THE Cornerstone.
Re: Jews and Gentiles
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2008, 05:41:21 PM »
 Well, you know, this is REALLY HARD for me. HARD. My Roots going back to the way b4 1400's in Portugal with forced catholic conversions, that have effected my personal Jewish roots for generations.. Inquisition.. For ie: I ALWAYS want to know EXACTLY what people are thinking of me. I ABHOR when missionized, or preached to. DisLoyalty is an ABOMINATION to me, and I cannot stay friends with a person, AT ALL, if they have backstabbed, been disloyal, or refuse to take up for me. I almost ALWAYS need some type reassuring from CLOSE family, or the few friends that I have, that I am doing right.  I CANNOT take being under a personal spot-light, and DEF. get truly AFRAID when someone approaches me, if I perhaps have offended them, I almost feel scared that they will kill me, I KNOW this sounds NUTS, ( I CONSTANTLY have to work on this, EVERYDAY, all the time). There are too MANY little things like this, that I have had to pray and ask G-d to please help me deal with, each one is a battle.

  When people tell me that I am not a Jew, because of how I present myself, (or whatever) I get choked up and cannot breathe, if people tell me that I am not a good "christian" I get just as choked up. It is NOT easy having come from a line that are Cryptos, both faiths are in our roots and family now. My whole family is so secretive, Right away, if I meet a person that I REALLY like, I tell the person ALL of the BAD points about my character, so that they know straightaway.  Family's that are crypto, are TOUGH to deal with, they share NOTHING with even each-other.

  So, HOW DOES one tell if a person is Jew or Gentile? Because of my little insecurities, I take people at their word, and warm up to them instantly.. I suppose It doesent matter to me, AS LONG as the persons intentions are true, and they mean WELL.  I suppose this would really bother a person that has BOTH mother AND father that are Jewish.. perhaps people 'want' to be Jewish? I dont know.  I would suggest to a person like this to get all of his roots and find out for himself.  This is really hard for me, I opened myself up here, because Q's like this get to me. TY.

I can't relate to all your emotions..

But surely you are aware that the rule is.

If your mother is jewish, you are jewish.
One may be a bad jew or a good jew, but a jew is a jew.

Other "movements" that do not believe the torah is from sinai, can invent who is a jew, make it cultural, patrilineal, e.t.c.

perhaps one could say "culturally jewish" or "ethnically jewish" though those terms are problematic. And it doesn't make one jewish or not jewish, it has no bearing.  But if that is your "jewishness" then it is better to say that than to say Jewish.

anybody who wants to become jewish can. So anybody who "feels jewish" but isn't, is welcome to become jewish, if they are serious.. It's a long process.  

Nobody should be offended by being told they are jewish or not jewish. Or by being jewish or not jewish..

If you try to present yourself as a good christian, and as a jew , then you're going to run into problems. You might resolve it by saying you believe christianity and happen to have some jewish ethnicity, and like many christians here - sympathy for israel.  Or by becoming orthodox and converting - which would be a hard route. If marriage certificates can prove to a rabbinate that you are jewish, then it would be easier, you would just have to reject christianity.   You would have problems if you try to be both at the same time..
If rabbis do not accept you as jewish, becuse of insufficient proof. Then you may as well say Ethnically jewish - NOT JEWISH - but perhaps proud of your roots and whatever. While believing in whatever religion it is you believe in - chrstianity or whatever.   You could be a torah believing noachide, but then don't pretend to be a christian .  
If you claim to be of 2 religions, it will be too hard, you won't fit into any community..

maybe there are councillors that specialise in healing members of crypto families that have this problem.
 


  Ty, this is the FIRST time that I have opened up about this, I just believe that this was the best place. All that I know, is that this is a LONG road  and has been.  Agreeing with you, I will have to say that my Mother is Jewish, and so am I, simply put: WEAK in Judaism, and thats the TRUTH.  After having read this, I will have to conclude that this is how to answer when asked "We are weak Jews". I WISH that I had the faliny's that peope on the forum have had- it is VERY difficult, with faiths all over the place- TY very much QQ- for your words, Clear and to the point. I am open to any other person that has something to say, because I am VERY VERY WEAK In Judaism, and ANYTHING you folks say, WILL help me on this path.  Also, Yes- QQ, I have been talking to people that are just like me, And I thought MY little minds was all over the place, I am NOTHING in comparison to others, NOTHING. 
  So, you just made my life a LOT easier. My family and many families are just like this.  yes, of COURSE I am VERY proud of my heritage.  David is the most loving person in the planet, so not worried there.  And, I have not ever fit well into any community for ONE reason: I AM WAY TOO OUTSPOKEN. Other than that- I am loved by my Jewish brethren in my community and I tend to cling to them more than any other 'person' people'  Ty QQ for the TRUTH. I APPRECIATE IT.
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל
I endorse NO Presidential Candidates

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Jews and Gentiles
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2008, 06:00:18 PM »
Paulette- why dont you talk to a Rabbi and solve the questions you have.
 1- If it is established that you are Jewish, and you have problems (questions) on whether to follow Judasim, and if it is the word of G-d or not, you can always learn from the DivineInformation video's on www.Torahanytime.com - Under Rabbi Mizrachi's page.  Here is the page  http://www.kolyakov.org/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/ - You can see for example the video's like "Truth and Shabb-t"  "Less Than One Percent of the World" and also "the Debate"  - let me know how it went, but if you establish that you are Halahicaly Jewish, then you are als oin the same category of many of us, who never knew how to keep the Mitzvot, but then we learn, find out, and with G-d's help progress a step at a time (starting with the big Mitzvot like Shabb-t, Kosher, and Modesty (for ladies expecially important).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Jews and Gentiles
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2008, 06:09:41 PM »
I think he should be told the truth.

Does he have a Jewish father who intermarried with a Gentile woman? Did the Gentile woman have a fake conversion?



something like that the Gentile mother's grandmother had fake conversation

 So then tell him to see a good Rabbi, or a Beit Din, because I think it is more complicated.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: Jews and Gentiles
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2008, 06:17:06 PM »
I think he should be told the truth.

Does he have a Jewish father who intermarried with a Gentile woman? Did the Gentile woman have a fake conversion?



something like that the Gentile mother's grandmother had fake conversation

 So then tell him to see a good Rabbi, or a Beit Din, because I think it is more complicated.

the guy doesn't even know that his great grandmother converted and his parents are hiding it from him. if i do say it it will look like my word against his parents

 Email or call Rav Mizrachi Shlita and ask him. (you can P.M. me if you do not know it).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: Jews and Gentiles
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2008, 06:18:50 PM »
<snip> I am NOTHING in comparison to others, NOTHING.  <snip>
I AM WAY TOO OUTSPOKEN. <snip>

You know that you are very good in comparison to others, and that's why you're outspoken..

If you really thought - wrongly - that you were nothing, then you wouldn't have to shout it to yourself in capital letters(as if to remind yourself incase you forget!). You should stop shouting it at yourself, because it's not true.  

The internal conversations you are having with yourself are very damaging.

The following book may be helpful, I haven't read it but you may want to consider it. Maybe get it from the library.

Conversations with Yourself
A Practical Guide to Greater Happiness, Self-Development and Self-Empowerment
By Rabbi Zelig Pliskin
Artscroll - Mesorah Publications, New York: 2007
ISBN: 1-4226-0565-5

If you can afford it, I would suggest inquiring as to what others in your situation have done to get help.. You won't get helped by some quick-fix, like a lecture from a rabbi.   You would need alot of open dialogue..  with a professional if you can afford it.. And you may need to shop around for one , and reject or get second opinions and third opinions if you are uncomfortable with what you are being told.

 

Offline AsheDina

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5665
  • PSALMS 129:5 "ZION" THE Cornerstone.
Re: Jews and Gentiles
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2008, 06:21:36 PM »
Paulette- why dont you talk to a Rabbi and solve the questions you have.
 1- If it is established that you are Jewish, and you have problems (questions) on whether to follow Judasim, and if it is the word of G-d or not, you can always learn from the DivineInformation video's on www.Torahanytime.com - Under Rabbi Mizrachi's page.  Here is the page  http://www.kolyakov.org/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/ - You can see for example the video's like "Truth and Shabbat"  "Less Than One Percent of the World" and also "the Debate"  - let me know how it went, but if you establish that you are Halahicaly Jewish, then you are als oin the same category of many of us, who never knew how to keep the Mitzvot, but then we learn, find out, and with G-d's help progress a step at a time (starting with the big Mitzvot like Shabbat, Kosher, and Modesty (for ladies expecially important).

Torahanytime.com is a great site for all Jews and for anyone who is seeking the truth

 Ty Yonathan, Since I have been on the forum officially, I saw the link: torahanytime.  but just started into it as of recent.  
 Truly , THANK you all for ANY help here on this subject, NOT knowing the TRUTH in all things- STINKS. The truth is better than a LIE.  Since I do audios here, I have to be 100% ON with TRUTH. so, TY- BOTH ^^^ up there :) APPRECIATE it. People NEED the TRUTH.
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל
I endorse NO Presidential Candidates

Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: Jews and Gentiles
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2008, 06:23:01 PM »
And get some advice from Mills, she's a uniqiuely talented thinker, and she just finished a psychology degree.