Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Breakdown of the Halakhic System - Two Earth-Shattering Shiurim - Exclusive
Lubab:
To help explain this further:
All machloket is rooted in one fundamental machloket between severity (Shammai) and kindness (Hillel).
Which one is True? Severity or Kindness? In truth this is an invalid question. This the same as asking: is kindness a good thing or a bad thing. If you answer yes or no to that question your answer is not truth.
It's a ridiculous as someone asking is a knife good? Or what's better a knife or a fork? Those are the wrong questions. The question is what is a knife and a fork good for?
Ein Davar Sh'ein Lo Shaa (Pirkei Avot). A knife is good if used properly. A fork is good if used properly in the right time in the right way. Both are bad if used at the wrong time in the right way.
So too with kindesss and severity. Each can be good or bad depending on the situation and how they are used. Both are only tools.
The objective truth which R' Chaim wants to find is the inner goal that we want to acheive with kindness or severity and that does not change depending on which tool you are using.
e.g. if your goal is to raise your child to be a mentch both kindess and severity are not contradictory anymore. Both are used as mere tools to acheive the same goal when needed, in the right proportion etc. The objective goal (raising the kid to be a mentch) does not change.
So truth looks like this:
.
. .
You will always have the two contradictary extremes in every situation and then you willl have the inner point behind both of them (what both were created to accomplish which is the objective truth which never changes and unites both extremes and shows how they don't really contradict any more than a fork contradicts a knife.
This is beauty of Torah. It unites the subjective and the objective. It is flexible than postmodernism and yet at the same time more scientific than mathematics and it shows how those two schools of thought don't even contradict.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 29, 2008, 01:39:08 AM ---If one learns properly (using the methods of the Yud Gimel Midos SheHatorah Nidreshes Bahem) you can find more than one interpretation of of Talmudic passage and they can ALL be 100% correct and this will NOT lead to the legitimization of Christianity, homosexuality or any of those philsophies G-d forbid.
--- End quote ---
Rabbi Yishmael's 13 (yud gimmel) rules , when applicable, apply logically and strictly..
Nothing to do with validating a sea of interpretations where anything not forbidden by the torah is a valid interpetation. These are strict rules with strict conclusions.
And AFAIK they are only applied to interpreting tenach.
Do you have any example of them being used to interpret a gemara?
They are certainly not used in the 3 oaths gemara anyway!!!
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 29, 2008, 01:39:08 AM ---This does not mean one does not care about the Truth of the matter. Because in order to get to the truth of the matter you can't just say one opinon is wrong and the other is right. That is almost never the truth. When you find the Truth it will bring out the essence of both sides which at first appear contradictory but in truth are not contradictary at all.
<snip>
--- End quote ---
There is no logic in saying that in every case when 2 rabbis disagree, the truth is in between them.
And I don't know how this is relevant to an intelligent discussion.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on June 29, 2008, 02:08:42 AM ---
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 29, 2008, 01:39:08 AM ---If one learns properly (using the methods of the Yud Gimel Midos SheHatorah Nidreshes Bahem) you can find more than one interpretation of of Talmudic passage and they can ALL be 100% correct and this will NOT lead to the legitimization of Christianity, homosexuality or any of those philsophies G-d forbid.
--- End quote ---
Rabbi Yishmael's 13 (yud gimmel) rules , when applicable, apply logically and strictly..
Nothing to do with validating a sea of interpretations where anything not forbidden by the torah is a valid interpetation. These are strict rules with strict conclusions.
And AFAIK they are only applied to interpreting tenach.
Do you have any example of them being used to interpret a gemara?
They are certainly not used in the 3 oaths gemara anyway!!!
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 29, 2008, 01:39:08 AM ---This does not mean one does not care about the Truth of the matter. Because in order to get to the truth of the matter you can't just say one opinon is wrong and the other is right. That is almost never the truth. When you find the Truth it will bring out the essence of both sides which at first appear contradictory but in truth are not contradictary at all.
<snip>
--- End quote ---
There is no logic in saying that in every case when 2 rabbis disagree, the truth is in between them.
And I don't know how this is relevant to an intelligent discussion.
--- End quote ---
Read carefully what I wrote about the source of machloket. Your answer is there. The Talmud itself states that "elei velue divrei elokim chaim" so if you say "there is no logic in saying that in every case when 2 rabbis disagree the truth is between them" you are calling the Talmud itself illogical. If we are not talking about legitimate Rabbis you are correct, but if we are talking about legitimate Rabbis who used the 13 principles of interpreting the Torah to get to their conclusion then yes there most certainly is truth between them.
Lubab:
The folly in this Rabbis perspective is nicely demonstrated when he is quoted from the softmore at YC. He says he thinks he is from YU so it probably should really say YU. In other words he's assuming because his view that he's from Yeshiva University means that what the paper says is wrong. This is really a lazy way of looking at the world. It's like not understanding something and saying "oh it must be a typo".
In truth YC stands for Yeshiva College which is a division of Yeshiva University. Both are true. He's from Yeshiva University and it's supposed to say "YC". It's just that one someone doesn't have a good grasp on a topic they think the two things are irreconcilable when in fact they are not. Get it?
Lubab:
The 13 principles are for learning Tanach, but each opinion in the gemarah must be based on a pasuk from Tanach learned with those principles.
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