Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Breakdown of the Halakhic System - Two Earth-Shattering Shiurim - Exclusive
Lubab:
Look more closely at your sources. They don't both say they were or were not different people.
Look at the language "one is identified with Hagar" could easily be referring to the way she was acting.
She keturah could have been dead at that time yet Hagar was acting just the way she did so the Torah calls her by that name.
Lubab:
With this q_q you are hitting on a deeper discussion. Who are you? If we change your name does that change you in any way?
What if we change everything about how you act and talk but you keep your namewhat kind of effect would that have on how you define yourself?
We see an example of this when the sages say: Pinchas Hu Eliyahu. (Pinchas is Elijah). Is he actually the same person? No way! But they had the same kind of mission and the same kind of actions so we go by that which much more defines who a person really is than their name.
This unity of mission between people of different generations is really what the books on reincarnation are talking about, not the reincarnation of actual souls as most people believe because they never read the introduction to Shaar Hagilgilum.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 30, 2008, 07:01:50 PM ---Look more closely at your sources. They don't both say they were or were not different people.
Look at the language "one is identified with Hagar" could easily be referring to the way she was acting.
She keturah could have been dead at that time yet Hagar was acting just the way she did so the Torah calls her by that name.
--- End quote ---
The source I mentioned was
rabbi aryeh kaplan in "the living torah" , provides the sources.
It is online here
http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=1&CHAPTER=25
commentary on Gen 25:1
Keturah
A concubine (1 Chronicles 1:32). Some sources identify her with Hagar (Targum Yonathan; Bereshith Rabbah 61; Rashi). Others, however, maintain that she was a third wife (Bereshith Rabbah 57; Zohar 1:133b; Ibn Ezra; Rashbam; Ramban on 25:6). One ancient source states that Hagar was already dead at this time (Yov'loth 19:13).
Rabbi aryeh kaplan mentionining many sources. Let's look at one of them. Rashi.
He relies on one midrash.
He says on the pasuk(Verse) that says Avraham took a wife. 25:1
ZOH HAGAR - this is Hagar.
Rashi (based on one of the midrashim) is clearly saying Keturah and Hagar are the same person.
Do you agree, or do you maintain that "They don't both say they were or were not different people."
i.e. you're saying Rashi is not saying they were the same person and he is not saying they weren't. He is saying neither. ?
Lubab:
Read what I just wrote above your post about Pinchas and Eliyahu and you'll see a good example of what I'm talking about.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Lubab on June 30, 2008, 07:19:51 PM ---With this q_q you are hitting on a deeper discussion. Who are you? If we change your name does that change you in any way?
What if we change everything about how you act and talk but you keep your namewhat kind of effect would that have on how you define yourself?
We see an example of this when the sages say: Pinchas Hu Eliyahu? (Pinchas is Elijah). Is he actually the same person? No way! But they had the same kind of mission and the same kind of actions so we go by that which much more defines who a person really is than their name.
This unity of mission between people of different generations is really what the books on reincarnation are talking about, not the reincarnation of actual souls as most people believe because they never read the introduction to Shaar Hagilgilum.
--- End quote ---
I am glad that you like my reincarnation explanation - call it the reincarnation like in shir hagilgulim, which you say is reincarnated mission. Very good. But I made it up to agree with judea's point.
To take it seriously after I said I made it up, is ridiculous.
Do you think I have ruach hakodesh? and even though I said I made it up, it is still true?
I don't know where you are going there.
I tihnk the other line of discussion about what the sources say is more sensible. You seem to be saying that no source says they were or were not the same. Well let's see. I mentioned Rashi.
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