8 Nagging Questions About 9-11

[briann]

bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...

ohhhhh kkkk.     That photo was taken from a video.


But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.



Also check out this:




Especially at about 1:20 The fire on the south side is completely consuming... and starts to create a visible hole in the overall structure.  Again.. the Conspiratists always leave this out fro some reason.  hmmmm..  I wonder why?!?

Short clip here:



Here is the LOWER south side:



(Here you can here the fireman saying... 'thats why they PULLED everyone out of here'.... (Discussing the instabillity of the building)



What else you got??

Ok. There is a lot of controversy surrounding that picture you posted...it's not a simple matter. I'll get into it soon when I am able.

But let's say your right. Let's say there was a big fire in the building.

Since when do big fires in a buildng cause an entire steel structure building to collapse entirely in less than 10 seconds at basically free-fall speed? Does this make any sense to you at all? 

OK... this is why conspiracists focus on Building 7... since there was NO jet fuel.. and therefore, nothing could burn through Metal.
This is their argument:  steel-framed skyscrapers have never collapsed from fire, since they’re built from steel that doesn’t melt below 2750° Fahrenheit.  (This is also known as the Rosie O Donel Argument)

Response:

There was NO melted steel.  1 Contractors reported seeing a melted greyish material in very small amounts.. and 9/11 truthists have fixated on it.  Based upon everything he described... the material was aluminum, a component of the WTC structural material.. which obviusly burns at a much lower temperature.

Best estimates believe that the temperature (based upon the materials that were burning) in WTC 7 probably reached about 1000 degrees.  This is NOT enough to burn steel. (somthing rosie kept bringing up)

HOWEVER!!!  steel loses 50% of its strength at 650° F.. and at 1000 degrees it can lose as much as 75% of its strength. 

THIS is why all the independant experts all said that building 7 WOULD collapse, and its just rediculous to believe that all these experts on all these panels and would know LESS than the 9/11 truthers.

Point 2:

Many of the presenters at the 9/11 truth conferences compare videos of the collapse of the towers with videos of known controlled demolitions, noting the similarity in both the appearance and speed of collapse

RESPONSE:

In controlled demolitions, detonating devices weaken or disrupt all major support points in a building at the same time. Therefore, once the collapse begins, all parts of the building are simultaneously in motion, free-falling to the ground.

in the WTC collapse.. you will find that the parts of the buildings above and at the weak points will fall... while the lower parts of the buildings are initially stationary.  This is true of all 3 buildings... but its more obvious in WTC 1 and 2, since their weak points were more focused.   The parts of the towers below the impact point do not begin to fall until the higher floors have collapsed onto them.  An interesting point is that there has NEVER been a controlled demolition.. where the lower parts of the buildings are initially stationary. 

with building 7.. the same occured... however the fall started on the South Side where the structural hole was created form the intense burning.

POint 3:

“pancaking” onto the floors below at or near the speed of a free fall just is not physically possible.  It must have been rigged.

The floors where the collapse began were obviusly the weakest (We assume the steel strength there was about 25% of what it normally would be based upon the approximated temperature).  Now once a floor collapses... it now has the weight (momentum would be more accurate) of not only this floor... but of all the floors above it.   So basically you have the weight of 20 or so floors falling at the same time... and they fall on the floor directly below the initial collapse.  The floor directly below the initial collapse would obviously be weak (since its right next to the fire that caused the floor above it to collapse).  So this weakened floor will then collapse...and when this happens... the floor below it now has to deal with the weight of the initial collapse + 1.  And the one below it + 2, and the one below it. + 3.. and so forth.  It becomes so heavy... and with so much momentum that it becomes like an unstoppable avalanche.

This is gone over in GREAT detail in the popular science article.

[cjd]

buildings don't collapse from fires!!! never have and never will... unless they are solely made from wood!!!! they burn out and are a hallowed wreck and it's visible from all around that this bldg. has been gutted by fire... and don't give me any of that rocket-fuel crap or generators and 1000 degree heat... (hey i just noticed there is no degree sign key on a keyboard)... if you see the shots of the second plane hitting... most of the fuel burnt up in the air 'cause the plane hit a corner and the fuel was thrown out the side... out from the corner pocket... such a farce... what a murderous group of bastards our gov't. is... and what abominable, pathological liars they all are... nik. out...

  Nik> Spain? London? Bali? 2 East African Embassies? the Bombing at the Atlanta Olympics? WTC 1993? USS COLE? ISRAEL? >THS US GOVT?
I DONT THINK SO.
  2800 degrees of HEAT WILL MELT down buildings made of STEEL. Which is WHY they did NOT target the Empire State building- IT IS IRON.

And tons of cement and brick. The trade center was very light construction it was made to allow great open spaces on each floor. Once steel or iron gets hot it bends like a stick of butter. Anyone only has to watch an old time blacksmith heat iron and bend it with the slightest of ease to see why the trade center went down. In the first attack it was only a blast and the building was able to survive it with moderate damage. It was the tons of fuel that really was the deadly ingredient on 9-11.

[briann]

buildings don't collapse from fires!!! never have and never will... unless they are solely made from wood!!!! they burn out and are a hallowed wreck and it's visible from all around that this bldg. has been gutted by fire... and don't give me any of that rocket-fuel crap or generators and 1000 degree heat... (hey i just noticed there is no degree sign key on a keyboard)... if you see the shots of the second plane hitting... most of the fuel burnt up in the air 'cause the plane hit a corner and the fuel was thrown out the side... out from the corner pocket... such a farce... what a murderous group of bastards our gov't. is... and what abominable, pathological liars they all are... nik. out...

Nik.. I responded to your post above.  Please tell me what part you dissbeleive.

[AsheDina]

   IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK ON THE WTC- WTC 7 WAS TAKEN DOWN BY NYC.  What is the PROBLEMA HERE? I keep REPOSTING the SAME thing.  Some of you people are too damned THICK. Not ME, YOU.

[Muck DeFuslims]

It's funny.  You guys trust Bush and the establishment media on so little, but on this very important issue you are willing to buy their story and let it pass with little to no  scrutiny. There was an article debunking it...case closed...well it's not case closed. You need to be a critical reader. Just because there's on article claiming to debunk the theory does not mean it has been debunked.

There's also articles debunking  that article, so should we just believe the last person who had an article claiming to debunk the other?
No! We should use our brains.

Let me know when you're going to start using yours.

There was a very thick metal core inside those buildings...even if the floors pancaked that core should have remained...ask yourself if it little to know trace of it. Ask yourself if that makes sense instead of just swallowing one side's view just because it happens to be more popularly accepted.

First of all, there wasn't a very thick metal core inside those buildings. You simply don't know what you're talking about. The WTC used an innovative construction technique in which the outer skin of the towers bore most of the load required to keep a structure that large standing.

Secondly, what did you expect to still be standing when a structure 100 stories tall collapses ? Maybe you think the elevator shafts should remain standing by themselves hundreds of feet in the air while the rest of the structure collapses ?

Thirdly, you're still suggesting that the towers came down as part of a controlled implosion. So let's use our brains and think what this would require. This would mean that hundreds (maybe thousands) of pounds of explosives would have had to be brought into the buildings, strategically placed, and then wired into a network in order to accomplish a controlled detonation and implosion. This would require a massive undertaking, yet somehow this endeavor remained undetected. Sorry, this just isn't credible. If you have a brain and are using it, this should be obvious. Additionally, your absurd speculative version of 9/11 requires getting and allowing mooozies to slam jets into the WTC to cover up the already planned implosion. If you subscribe to this theory, you're not only not using your brain, you might not have one. 

I'm getting personal messages from a lot of people since I opened this thread who agree with me and/or are expressing doubts about our government's aid in these events. They apparently won't go public with it because of the mockery they surely will be forced to endure.
But that's wrong. People should be able to discuss their views  and opinions without mockery.

P.S. This takes  nothing away from the need to stop Islam. Their terrorism and hate for us has long been proved.
But  since we know how ineffective Bush's War on Terror has been, ignoring  all the important dangers Islam poses and focusing on things like..."democracy in the Middle East"...it's not a counter-JTF position to wonder whose  side he's really on.

Well, one thing we don't have to wonder about is what side the 9/11 'truthers' are on. As has been noted by another poster earlier in this thread, the 9/11 truthers are almost invariably antisemitic. They always come back to Silverstein the Jew being part of the conspiracy. They take great pleasure in talking about the Mossad being involved. They love to use the code word 'necons' to refer to some vast Jewish/zionist conspiracy designed to plunge America into war with the friendly, naively innocent muslims. The common undercurrent and theme of sites like 'whatreallyhappened.com' is that 9/11 was a zionist conspiracy designed to benefit Israel and pulled off by the Jewish dominated neocons.

There's another poster in this thread that was gently asked by Chaim to consider leaving the forum due to some bizarre beliefs about the Vatican being involved in 9/11 and what effect such beliefs have on the credibility of JTF. It's really unfortunate that now a moderator of the JTF forum would endorse the lunatic and antisemitic theories advocated by the 'truthers'. Lubab, you're entitled to subscribe to whatever 9/11 'truth' beliefs you might have; but as a moderator and leader you also need to consider what effect advocating such beliefs might have on the legitimacy and credibility of JTF and the JewsAgainstObama campaign.

Use your brain.

[nikmatdam]

briann i did respond above to you... what is it that did not satisfy you...?nik.

[briann]

There's another poster in this thread that was gently asked by Chaim to consider leaving the forum due to some bizarre beliefs about the Vatican being involved in 9/11 and what effect such beliefs have on the credibility of JTF. It's really unfortunate that now a moderator of the JTF forum would endorse the lunatic and antisemitic theories advocated by the 'truthers'. Lubab, you're entitled to subscribe to whatever 9/11 'truth' beliefs you might have; but as a moderator and leader you also need to consider what effect advocating such beliefs might have on the legitimacy and credibility of JTF and the JewsAgainstObama campaign.

Use your brain.[/b]

Theres actually at least 2 members... probably more.   the conspiracy's of Nik (not Lubab) caused extraordinary damage.

I am only continuing this argument... sorta as a test.   I can continue it in private... if you think this would be better.

[Lubab]

   IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK ON THE WTC- WTC 7 WAS TAKEN DOWN BY NYC.  What is the PROBLEMA HERE? I keep REPOSTING the SAME thing.  Some of you people are too damned THICK. Not ME, YOU.

So you are admitting NYC demolished the building? That is NOT the official story. But if so, how did they get the explosives in there so fast to be able to do that.

I hear it takes a month of preparation for a good controlled demolition.

[briann]

briann i did respond above to you... what is it that did not satisfy you...?nik.

Yes.. you responded... and I responded back showing you that the photo was NOT right after WTC 1 or 2 fell down.. by showing you 3 to 4 videos of the south side... all showing the same damage..  If you want to respond to these videos.. please do.

Then I responded to the allegations of fire not being able to bring down the building.  Please read that as well... and then respond.

[nikmatdam]

so bry... why did it take 7 hours or more for bldg. 7 a much smaller bldg (47 stories instead of over a hundred each) to collapse and the twin towers both fell in just over an hour of burning...? and don't give me rocket fuel... cause that evaporates in minutes and is gone... if bldg. 7 is so engulfed in fire as you claim... and the twin towers were barely on fire way up on top... how did it take hrs. to collapse...? such utter rubbish and nonsense... nik. the truth will out... out...

[briann]

I haven't made up my mind. I would love nothing more than if Brian's sources give me a good logical explanation...we'll see if they do.

Im empressed Lubab... your more open minded than most.  I am a professor... and I LOVE teaching and this does not bother me one bit.  Just as long as no one starts calling eachother Nazis or cursing them to death. 

[nikmatdam]

you said the film of total smoke is from 1:20 in the afternoon... the bldg. fell at what 4:30 or five...? nik.

[Dr. Dan]

bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...

dan... one's opinion has nothing to say here... either there was a conspiracy or there was not... either evidence can be found or there cannot be found any... either the proof is convincing or it is not... all on objective criteria and with true scientific rules and standards of research... but opinion has no right to lift up its ugly head... nik. out... to the both o' yuz...

ummm...nik...I purposely had "in my opinion" because everything we post here are opinions..just that nobody says that usually because they think their opinions are facts and state them like facts.  Since i'm a nice honest person, I make sure that I emphasize that it's all my opinion.

Lubab's thread here is also an opinion..not a fact...you can state things all you want like they are facts, but really they are opinions.

Want to hear some facts?

The sky is blue in the daytime, oxygenated blood is red in human beings,  NJ is smaller than NY and California is bigger than NY...just to give you some examples.

[nikmatdam]

oh wow... doc... gee... thanks... don't know what i'd do w/out u... nik. in your debt... out...

[Lubab]

you said the film of total smoke is from 1:20 in the afternoon... the bldg. fell at what 4:30 or five...? nik.

Fell at 5:30 something.

[Dr. Dan]

bry... that's smoke from an explosion not from another bldg. which had already been blown up earlier in the day...

ohhhhh kkkk.     That photo was taken from a video.


But anyhoo... goto the link below.. first they show the side that the Conspirarists show... then they show the other side... that the Conspirarists NEVER show.



What else you got??

 I do not believe that their was a conspiracy, I DO believe what Chaim ben Pesach said in 1994, that they WOULD come back to finish the job. They did. And we blame the US GOVT- who IS "We the People"  People in NY, KNOW what happened, ask Masterwolf, David, Chaim and others who lived IN NYC.

 Oh, also, I dont talk about Presidents during Wartime, I messed up a couple times, and did screw up- but it IS sedition.  This would have NEVER been acceptable to dis a President like this, BEFORE the terrible 1960's. I will REMAIN a decent person, and American.

Well if we're wrong than it's sedition, if we're right than he's the traitor. An investigation to find out which is which is not sedition.

Jews should never blindly trust their non-Jewish government no matter how friendly it seems. Haven't 3,000 years of galut and mayhem at the hands of our non-Jewish hosts taught us at least that much?!

Bush is doing almost nothing effective to fight the real war we need to be fighting against Islam so there isn't much of a "war effort" to betray here in the first place. You can't have a war on terror and have BBQs which the Saudi Royal family and tell the American people that the Saudis are our "friends" and "Islam is a religion of peace".  Those things just don't go together and never will.

I wish their was a real war on terror unfortunately this one seems to be a fraud.

How do you know that he's not doing an effective job?  Maybe our enemies are a little more clever than we are since they use a different type of warfare than what we are used to?  We haven't been in a ground war in a looooong time either.

Now, am I saying that I trust Bush?  Not at all...I'm simply saying that there is no way to prove without a reasonable doubt that his whole presidency and this whole 9/11 is a conspiracy...I would rather go with what is much much more obvious..that this was somethign planned by evil animal terrorists..and the reason why they got away with doing what they did was because we had been sitting out our hands thinking we are higher than Gd and that we were invincible...Worrying about conspiracies will not make us a better country...finding the culprits and destorying them and doing away with the social relativism we get wtih extreme political correctness will improve our country.

I maintain my point of view...9/11 was no conspiracy..if there is any responsibility the US govt had, it was IGNORANCE of the nature of the enemy...and till this day, they remain ignorant to a certain degree.

[nikmatdam]

yep and on fire they say... for hrs. since the collapse at least of the 2 towers... that's what 9am to 5:30 pm... over 8 hours... that's a full day at the office... and a horse-drawn wagon load of crap!!! nik.

no check tha... from 10 am or so onward... well 1 hour for lunch then... n.

[briann]

so bry... why did it take 7 hours or more for bldg. 7 a much smaller bldg (47 stories instead of over a hundred each) to collapse and the twin towers both fell in just over an hour of burning...? and don't give me rocket fuel... cause that evaporates in minutes and is gone... if bldg. 7 is so engulfed in fire as you claim... and the twin towers were barely on fire way up on top... how did it take hrs. to collapse... such utter rubbish and nonsense... nik. the truth will out... out...

Nik.. you didnt read my post.   I specifically said that the rocketfuel was NOT a factor... but that 9/11 truthers like to fixate on Bldng 7 since they dont have to deal with the added confusion of it.

The reason why Bldng 7 took longer is pretty obvious.  1)  Their WAS significant structural damage from the plane itself.  Watch the videos... and see for yourself.



Unless you think it was a missle

You are right.. the rocket fuel did evapurate quite quickly... but it was able to cause HUGE damage with the first 15 seconds or so of the collision... 

The difference between the B 1 and 2, and B 7 was that with B 1 and 2.. the damage happened extremely quickly... whereas Building 7... the damage was slow... mostly centering around the South Side structural weakening by the spreading fire.

Next Question.

[AsheDina]

   IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK ON THE WTC- WTC 7 WAS TAKEN DOWN BY NYC.  What is the PROBLEMA HERE? I keep REPOSTING the SAME thing.  Some of you people are too damned THICK. Not ME, YOU.

So you are admitting NYC demolished the building? That is NOT the official story. But if so, how did they get the explosives in there so fast to be able to do that.

I hear it takes a month of preparation for a good controlled demolition.

 ► Deputy Chief Peter Hayden: "By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?
Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there.

Firehouse: Chief Nigro said they made a collapse zone and wanted everybody away from number 7— did you have to get all of those people out?
Hayden: Yeah, we had to pull everybody back. It was very difficult. We had to be very forceful in getting the guys out. They didn’t want to come out. There were guys going into areas that I wasn’t even really comfortable with, because of the possibility of secondary collapses. We didn’t know how stable any of this area was. We pulled everybody back probably by 3 or 3:30 in the afternoon. We said, this building is going to come down, get back. It came down about 5 o’clock or so, but we had everybody backed away by then. At that point in time, it seemed like a somewhat smaller event, but under any normal circumstances, that’s a major event, a 47-story building collapsing. It seemed like a firecracker after the other ones came down, but I mean that’s a big building, and when it came down, it was quite an event. But having gone through the other two, it didn’t seem so bad. But that’s what we were concerned about. We had said to the guys, we lost as many as 300 guys. We didn’t want to lose any more people that day. And when those numbers start to set in among everybody…" -Firehouse Magazine (04/02)


  YOU GOT ME...
 So the NYC Fire Dept are part of the US GOVT? I KNOW what happened, I CANNOT be convinced OTHERWIZE.
 So, fine, I am JUST as THICK as all of YOU.

 You TRY living under the National Guard for a YEAR, MUCH like Martial Law- and they did it, FOR NO REASON but to scare a bunch of people living Upstate NY>? PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! I KNOW what it is like to feel & live in terror. And it sure didnt come from the members of the National Guard who were NICE, even though they stopped us CONTINUALLY. I wonder what our brothers in Israel would think of this, since the WHOLE world thinks that palestinians are 'NICE' people, and the Jews in Israel are the "real" terrorists. "America and Israel" the real terrorists...... BS.

Please read my other posts, IF YOU REALLY BUY THIS CRAP.

[briann]

you said the film of total smoke is from 1:20 in the afternoon... the bldg. fell at what 4:30 or five...? nik.

No.. I said fast forward to 1 minute 20 seconds into that particular video.

[Dr. Dan]

buildings don't collapse from fires!!! never have and never will... unless they are solely made from wood!!!! they burn out and are a hallowed wreck and it's visible from all around that this bldg. has been gutted by fire... and don't give me any of that rocket-fuel crap or generators and 1000 degree heat... (hey i just noticed there is no degree sign key on a keyboard)... if you see the shots of the second plane hitting... most of the fuel burnt up in the air 'cause the plane hit a corner and the fuel was thrown out the side... out from the corner pocket... such a farce... what a murderous group of bastards our gov't. is... and what abominable, pathological liars they all are... nik. out...

see? that's an opinion...

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "I believe the Popular Mechanics explanation and think it is good at refuting the conspiracy theories."

I would be willing to accept the Popular Mechanics explanation, if the author of the article cited had not been Michael Chertov's nephew.

As in Michael Chertov, Director of Deparment of Homeland Security.

And...that term--"Homeland".....isn't that a Soviet / Third Reich title like "Russian Motherland" / "German Vaterland"?

Americans have NEVER in 200 years referred to our land as a "Homeland" in the same way authoritarian states have always done.

[briann]

yep and on fire they say... for hrs. since the collapse at least of the 2 towers... that's what 9am to 5:30 pm... over 8 hours... that's a full day at the office... and a horse-drawn wagon load of crap!!! nik.

no check tha... from 10 am or so onward... well 1 hour for lunch then... n.

Please explain what you are saying here.. and I will respond to it.

[nikmatdam]

Especially at about 1:20 The fire on the south side is completely consuming... and starts to create a visible hole in the overall structure.  Again.. the Conspiratists always leave this out fro some reason.  hmmmm..  I wonder why?!?


now briann you see why i thought you said 1:20 pm... but look at the sky on the pic you posted... clearly very early on in the day... what took so long...? sept. 11 has shorter days... not summer anymore almost... it looks like early afternoon... nik.

[Dr. Dan]

oh wow... doc... gee... thanks... don't know what i'd do w/out u... nik. in your debt... out...

ah, be nice...