Why Aren't More Jews in the Military?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

 That's not true. Soldiers in IDF elite units, like the Golani, are disproportionately religious Jews.

It is only some of the Haredim sects that refuse to serve, not all religious Jews.

[mord]

That's not true. Soldiers in IDF elite units, like the Golani, are disproportionately religious Jews.

It is only some of the Haredim sects that refuse to serve, not all religious Jews.

Oh i thought you meant chssids like satmar yes national religous serve in a higher %then anyone else in Israel

[Zelhar]

I think Jews should only serve in a Jewish army, they shouldn't get involved in goyim's wars unless it is for the defrense and well being of the Jews (i.e ww1 - Jews shouldn't have get involved, ww2- they should have fought in allied armies against the Nazis).

Jews may live in America, but their motherland is Israel.

I oppose that, we live in America enjoying the constitutional rights granted to us, we should be eligible to fight for the country we live in to defend her. Doesn't matter what the persons background is.

Defending America is permissible by my book... as long as it doesn't involve fighting another Jew. Most of the resent military engagement of America were either stupid (Iraq, Afghanistan) or evil (Bosnia, Serbia) so I feel sorry for soldiers who lost their lives in stupid conflicts, especially Jews as they are my people, and I think it is morally sinful to participate in the war against the Serbs, for a Jew or a righteous gentile,  Going to war against Serbia and enabling the installment of Islamonazi countries is a great sin. 

[Zelhar]

Horselady- I can tell you flat out- that even though ALL of my family served, and I have done what I could, this new movement of Anti-Jew DOES NOT CARE.  They consider ALL Jews as a menace to society- and this is the truth.  You saw it with "ClassicWoman" (I think that is her name) on the other forum you are on. There is NO changing her mindset. I WILL PROTECT EVERY SINGLE JEW. Left OR right, If I have had to, and this is BAD for these Anti-Jew people, I AM NOT a force to be reckoned with, I have MANY high ranking officers as great friends, and they WILL be with me, should ANYTHING EVER happen to me.  You know how Christians say: "Christian & Gd first" country second? IT IS THE EXACT same for Jewish people, as it should be. I RARELY meet a person as patriotic as myself, which I DO have witness, David ben Moshe knows me, VERY well- personally. 

 


Yes, I know that, which is why I was hoping to be able to refute the notion that Jews are underrepresented in the military.
I defend the Jewish people in every way I can on almost a daily basis. This is the one area about which I never could
present a strong argument. Although the "liberal Jewish" explanation seems to work best.

  they DONT care- at all. TRUST me, they DONT, I have email threads FULL of them. They hate ALL Jews- ALL OF THEM. There is NO refuting to this madness. They will NOT listen, they are operating in a heart of murder now. Oh well- FINE..
  I suggest if they try to kill me, they better be ready for an army FIST & Batallian Commander to Praise the Lrd and pass the ammunition right in their direction. And I will be the one TARGETING THEM.  JEWS WILL NOT SIT BACK THIS TIME. Over 1,900 yrs of SLAUGHTER gets to a people.....after awhile.....   the "Tolerence" IS GONE.  these people had BETTER read their book- and SEE what An ANGRY G-D can do, when an EVIL people rise up against Jews, that are CRYING OUT to HaShem- this will NOT be pretty- uh- 10 plagues? Frogs? Firstborn males? Jews are CRYING out to G-d and HE IS LISTENING to their CRIES. NOT good for these nazis. BE AFRAID. BE VERY AFRID.

Well yes, there are those people too. I don't try to argue with the obvious anti-semites too much, because it is a waste of time.
But people often have legitimate questions about Jews that I try to answer as best I can.

I'd like to think that Jews would not sit back and take it this time, but then again, there are an awful lot of them (liberal Jews) in Israel
who seem ready to give up everything rather than fight. I hope their numbers aren't greater than the Zionists there now.

I met an Israeli Jew on another board and he was all for making more concessions to the Palestinians. I had a hard time believing he
was a Jew at all, but got I banned before I could find out.

There are so many appeasers in Israel, its terrible. I tell them "if you don't want to defend Israel or if you lose hope you are free to leave, just don't force all of us to commit national suicide by retreating to the '49 borders because you are too scared".

[muman613]

When Moshiach is here, or at least a reasonably strong and bold religious Jew were to become the Prime Minister of Israel, I would certainly fight on the side of Israel. America is a wonderful country and certainly the country under which Judaism was allowed to flourish while other nations kept us down. But I am a dreamer of Zion which doesnt exist at the moment. I know it can exist, and I daven for this to happen each day. I don't think it will come to this, though Tamar Yonah on A7 news has made comparisons of GW Bush to Gog in the prophecy regarding coming of Moshiach. I dont always agree with her but it is an interesting thing to consider.

I am a Jew first, and an American second because my thoughts and actions are Jewish at all times. I dont find that current American values fit my value system. I was sucked into the dark underbelly of American culture and through a miracle I was able to escape that hell. As a BT I should not talk about my past.

But I will defend America against its enemies. I have worked in the defense industry working in high technology weaponry which is currently being used by the American defense department. I really hope this is not what will happen.

muman613
 

I can respect and understand that. What is a "BT?"

Horselady,

BT is an acronym for the term "Baal Teshuva" or a "Master of Return". We use this name for a Jew who leaves the religion and goes off the path. In his/her later life he comes back to his faith. In some respects this is compared to the "Born again" phenomenon in Christianity.

muman613

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_teshuva

Baal teshuva (Hebrew: בעל תשובה; for a woman: בעלת תשובה, baalat teshuva; plural: בעלי תשובה, baalei teshuva), sometimes abbreviated to BT, is a Hebrew term referring to a person who has repented. Baal teshuva can be translated idiomatically as "one who has done repentance." Informally, it is often contrasted with "FFB," i.e Frum From Birth.

The term historically referred to a Jew who had transgressed the Halakha ("Jewish law") and completed a process of introspection and "returned" to the straight path. However, in contemporary times, the phrase is primarily used to refer to a Jew from a secular background who has become religiously observant (normally in an orthodox fashion) later in life. (The alternative term "chozer b'teshuva" (חוזר בתשובה) is more common in Israel). There are numerous baal teshuva movements and organisations that seek to encourage this.

The Talmud expresses high regard of Baalei teshuva, by stating that "the position where Baalei teshuva attain; even Tzadikim gemurim (those who were always righteous) cannot attain".

[AsheDina]

  Well, since most of the members here are men and many Jewish men, you better watch out for 'Philistine' women- I suspect that there are lots and lots of REAL neo-nazi 'philistine' women, to rob you of your strength, and TAKE YOUR BIRTHRIGHT. 
  The thing is, Nazi humans- they ARE siding with islamos, & islamos in the end will murder them too.  Why Jews get on the 'defense' I WILL NEVER know.
  Horselady- you must know our history, and the power of HaShem. There would be absolutely ZERO military strategy today, if it were NOT for the Gd of the Jews, NONE. Those tactics that man has used, in some cases, were used for the good- like WW2, Afghanistan, even Iraq- BUT the time is FAST approaching, where HaShem WILL show Himself as The Mighty G-D of War, against Armies, and against individuals. I have watched and seen, how a gal like me, has had a massive offense, in life, AND internet, with the help of My Gd, as of recent, I watched a Jew hating Murdering Crime talker get TOTALLY humbled, by me, but, I KNOW that HaShem WAS WITH ME.  WE WILL NOT SIT BACK ANYMORE.  So they can ask all the questions they want, let HaShem answer THEM, with FIRE, and use US as the arrows.
  As I said: BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID. BE SCARED, BE SCARED TO DEATH

   

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

Jews should only serve in the Israeli Army. Jews don't belong in the United States. It would be a shame if a Jew did serve and then died serving a country that he or she has no place in.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

(Didn't real the post just the last 2, maybe will later)
 To mum- what you are describing is Hozer Bitshuva (or something like that, I know I got the first part right) a Baal Tishuva is someone who wasn't raised religious and then becomes religios and does the Mitzvot (well at least that is the least level, while others like Rabbi Mizrachi and Rabbi Yakov Hillel- (the biggest Kabbalist today) has much higher standard of a real (ultimate) Baal Tishuva- the one that is described as better then a perfect Tzaddik from birth.

 To Paulette- No one should fear anyone or anything even death. We should only fear 1 thing or being and that is G-d.

[AsheDina]

(Didn't real the post just the last 2, maybe will later)
 To mum- what you are describing is Hozer Bitshuva (or something like that, I know I got the first part right) a Baal Tishuva is someone who wasn't raised religious and then becomes religios and does the Mitzvot (well at least that is the least level, while others like Rabbi Mizrachi and Rabbi Yakov Hillel- (the biggest Kabbalist today) has much higher standard of a real (ultimate) Baal Tishuva- the one that is described as better then a perfect Tzaddik from birth.

 To Paulette- No one should fear anyone or anything even death. We should only fear 1 thing or being and that is G-d.

  Tzvi- PRECISELY my point.

[horselady]

Jews in Germany who fought for the Kaiser thought the same thing.

The whole point is that there are not Jewish-Americans, but simply Jews living in America at the grace of the majority of people, which can be revoked at anytime.

Look at Crown Heights and how quickly a progrom in America took place and no one did anything.

Are you talking about the riots in CH during the term of David Dinkens? You didn't see anything like that when Giuliani took over.
But I would hardly call it a progrom. A bunch of blacks went on a rampage & killed an innocent Jew is a tragedy but hardly does it a
pogrom make. My grandparents knew about pogroms and this wasn't it.

Seriously, though, why do you live here if your loyalty is elsewhere? Seems hypocritical to me.

[horselady]

Horselady, I have nothing but the highest level of honor and respect for anyone putting on a uniform, but I have to agree with all of the critics of the U.S. military here. The Armed Forces of the United States have become a politically-correct joke in the past 15 years. It started with Bill Clinton having our elite paratroopers dragged through the streets of Mogadishu to feed the starving Somali Muslim Nazis. Then, it got worse, as he sent our forces into action to commit genocide against Serbia. Finally, we have five years of quagmire in Iraq and seven in Afghanistan--both against two-bit foes that wouldn't have lasted three weeks against the U.S. Army of 1945 or even 1991.

Our boys and girls are getting murdered for nothing, because Dubya doesn't want to do anything that would harm so-called Muzzie "civilians", because that would offend his Saudi overlords. I will never support the bravest and most heroic of America's sons and daughters dying to save Muslim Nazis, or because they were forbidden to fight back agains them when getting shot at. We have a president who values al-Qaeda butchers over his own citizens.

That's one point of view. I respect that but don't think it's as black and white as you do. I think history will show that GW Bush was
correct in doing what he did.

[horselady]

I can respect and understand that. What is a "BT?"

Horselady,

BT is an acronym for the term "Baal Teshuva" or a "Master of Return". We use this name for a Jew who leaves the religion and goes off the path. In his/her later life he comes back to his faith. In some respects this is compared to the "Born again" phenomenon in Christianity.

muman613

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_teshuva

Baal teshuva (Hebrew: בעל תשובה; for a woman: בעלת תשובה, baalat teshuva; plural: בעלי תשובה, baalei teshuva), sometimes abbreviated to BT, is a Hebrew term referring to a person who has repented. Baal teshuva can be translated idiomatically as "one who has done repentance." Informally, it is often contrasted with "FFB," i.e Frum From Birth.

The term historically referred to a Jew who had transgressed the Halakha ("Jewish law") and completed a process of introspection and "returned" to the straight path. However, in contemporary times, the phrase is primarily used to refer to a Jew from a secular background who has become religiously observant (normally in an orthodox fashion) later in life. (The alternative term "chozer b'teshuva" (חוזר בתשובה) is more common in Israel). There are numerous baal teshuva movements and organisations that seek to encourage this.

The Talmud expresses high regard of Baalei teshuva, by stating that "the position where Baalei teshuva attain; even Tzadikim gemurim (those who were always righteous) cannot attain".

Thanks.

[horselady]

Jews should only serve in the Israeli Army. Jews don't belong in the United States. It would be a shame if a Jew did serve and then died serving a country that he or she has no place in.

Then those who feel that way should live in Israel. Case closed.

[muman613]

I wasnt raised religious other than to be given a Conservative Bar Mitzvah and Hebrew school. My level of observance is far greater than my parents and my grandparents.

muman613

[nessuno]

Horselady, I have nothing but the highest level of honor and respect for anyone putting on a uniform, but I have to agree with all of the critics of the U.S. military here. The Armed Forces of the United States have become a politically-correct joke in the past 15 years. It started with Bill Clinton having our elite paratroopers dragged through the streets of Mogadishu to feed the starving Somali Muslim Nazis. Then, it got worse, as he sent our forces into action to commit genocide against Serbia. Finally, we have five years of quagmire in Iraq and seven in Afghanistan--both against two-bit foes that wouldn't have lasted three weeks against the U.S. Army of 1945 or even 1991.

Our boys and girls are getting murdered for nothing, because Dubya doesn't want to do anything that would harm so-called Muzzie "civilians", because that would offend his Saudi overlords. I will never support the bravest and most heroic of America's sons and daughters dying to save Muslim Nazis, or because they were forbidden to fight back agains them when getting shot at. We have a president who values al-Qaeda butchers over his own citizens.

That's one point of view. I respect that but don't think it's as black and white as you do. I think history will show that GW Bush was
correct in doing what he did.

C.F. - I think we have a PC military policy so as not to offend PC America.  Not Saudi overlords.  We have become a weak nation.  That is the one thing I really fault President Bush for when it comes to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.  He should have told civilians to clear out of troubled areas and then leveled them.  We were going to rebuild them anyway.  We always do. 
Who's policy/plan was he following?
I sense a Colin Powell influence.  Isn't he the reason why we left Iraq the first go round?
The American people should grow a backbone and demand the full might of the American military be unleashed - so we can really afford to bring our troops home.

[AsheDina]

Jews should only serve in the Israeli Army. Jews don't belong in the United States. It would be a shame if a Jew did serve and then died serving a country that he or she has no place in.

Then those who feel that way should live in Israel. Case closed.

  Horselady- With Anti-Semitism on the rise here in America, 10x worse than it has EVER been, and neo-nazis siding with palestenians, and obama, just because of INSANE hatred of Jews- Economic Woes, and IRRESPONSIBLITY of govt. spending, and all of these freaks saying: "ITS ALL BECAUSE OF THE JEWS" which I see ALL of the time, constantly, Jews beaten up by neo-nazi demon satanists, just where exactly does the Jew have a home? And THEN we are told that we have to "give up" OUR OWN HOMELAND- 1900 plus years of murderous pagan devils slaughtering our ancestors, is there ANY reason WHY we should NOT be on the Offense, Defense off the fence and fighting all over, anywhere- everywhere, because we have had ENOUGH....? Jews DO serve in the Military, but the HEART of the JEW IS IN Israel, and you being Jewish SHOULD GET this, Totally- 100%. I am the STRONGEST patriot I myself have even met- my love for America is MY SOUL, however, Israel is MY HEART. Israel is Prophecy that has come to pass. IF we are NOT careful here in America, and turn our backs against the Jews and Israel, we WILL face the Wrath of G-d.  Some people forget, I dont- Ariel sharon, gives up Gaza, shakes Bushs hand- a week later, we get Katrina, and Sharon in a Coma for the remaining of his days. As I stated, we should have a more 'healthy' fear of Gd, and enemies should be AFRAID.
  Also- the kkk, and these other wacko sickos ie: C.I., Stormfuggers, etc.., ARE joining the military by the droves, b/c their wizard freak leaders are telling them to LEARN combat, so they can come back and defeat the Jews in America- THIS..............is the TRUTH.  So, HOW is a Jew even protected in the military? By the left? I DONT THINK SO.
 

[horselady]

Jews should only serve in the Israeli Army. Jews don't belong in the United States. It would be a shame if a Jew did serve and then died serving a country that he or she has no place in.

Then those who feel that way should live in Israel. Case closed.

  Horselady- With Anti-Semitism on the rise here in America, 10x worse than it has EVER been, and neo-nazis siding with palestenians, and obama, just because of INSANE hatred of Jews- Economic Woes, and IRRESPONSIBLITY of govt. spending, and all of these freaks saying: "ITS ALL BECAUSE OF THE JEWS" which I see ALL of the time, constantly, Jews beaten up by neo-nazi demon satanists, just where exactly does the Jew have a home? And THEN we are told that we have to "give up" OUR OWN HOMELAND- 1900 plus years of murderous pagan devils slaughtering our ancestors, is there ANY reason WHY we should NOT be on the Offense, Defense off the fence and fighting all over, anywhere- everywhere, because we have had ENOUGH....? Jews DO serve in the Military, but the HEART of the JEW IS IN Israel, and you being Jewish SHOULD GET this, Totally- 100%. I am the STRONGEST patriot I myself have even met- my love for America is MY SOUL, however, Israel is MY HEART. Israel is Prophecy that has come to pass. IF we are NOT careful here in America, and turn our backs against the Jews and Israel, we WILL face the Wrath of G-d.  Some people forget, I dont- Ariel sharon, gives up Gaza, shakes Bushs hand- a week later, we get Katrina, and Sharon in a Coma for the remaining of his days. As I stated, we should have a more 'healthy' fear of Gd, and enemies should be AFRAID.
  Also- the kkk, and these other wacko sickos ie: C.I., Stormfuggers, etc.., ARE joining the military by the droves, b/c their wizard freak leaders are telling them to LEARN combat, so they can come back and defeat the Jews in America- THIS..............is the TRUTH.  So, HOW is a Jew even protected in the military? By the left? I DONT THINK SO.
 

You make some excellent points here Paulette and I am aware of the growing anti-semitism too. But if I felt as strongly as you do about
the fate of Jews here, I would pack my bags and be on a plane to Tel Aviv in a NY minute. I don't understand why all the people here
who have expressed their first loyalty to Israel are sitting here complaining about America. Why are they not taking
their place in Israel to ensure that no more Sharons get in office? Why aren't the young ones over there serving in the Israeli military?
Talk is cheap. Israel needs Jews to emigrate there badly. Those who are Jews first and Americans second should be in the country
they love first and foremost.

When I was in Israel many years ago, the question I was asked most often is would I make aliyah to Israel? I might have if I could
have gotten a job there, but I only speak Japanese and the Japanese embassy there didn't need anyone. Many Israelis said to me,
"Americans shouldn't just send money here, they should move here."

So I'm asking, why don't all you Israel first people go to Israel?

[Maimonides]

Jews in Germany who fought for the Kaiser thought the same thing.

The whole point is that there are not Jewish-Americans, but simply Jews living in America at the grace of the majority of people, which can be revoked at anytime.

Look at Crown Heights and how quickly a progrom in America took place and no one did anything.

Are you talking about the riots in CH during the term of David Dinkens? You didn't see anything like that when Giuliani took over.
But I would hardly call it a progrom. A bunch of blacks went on a rampage & killed an innocent Jew is a tragedy but hardly does it a
pogrom make. My grandparents knew about pogroms and this wasn't it.

Seriously, though, why do you live here if your loyalty is elsewhere? Seems hypocritical to me.

I am learning Hebrew and eventually plan on making Aliya.

It is not my fault I was born in the Galut.

Nor is it the fault of any of the Jews who live in American and post on this forum, but if we are in good health then Hashem has given us the tools necessary to make it to Eretz Israel.

[AsheDina]

Jews should only serve in the Israeli Army. Jews don't belong in the United States. It would be a shame if a Jew did serve and then died serving a country that he or she has no place in.

Then those who feel that way should live in Israel. Case closed.

  Horselady- With Anti-Semitism on the rise here in America, 10x worse than it has EVER been, and neo-nazis siding with palestenians, and obama, just because of INSANE hatred of Jews- Economic Woes, and IRRESPONSIBLITY of govt. spending, and all of these freaks saying: "ITS ALL BECAUSE OF THE JEWS" which I see ALL of the time, constantly, Jews beaten up by neo-nazi demon satanists, just where exactly does the Jew have a home? And THEN we are told that we have to "give up" OUR OWN HOMELAND- 1900 plus years of murderous pagan devils slaughtering our ancestors, is there ANY reason WHY we should NOT be on the Offense, Defense off the fence and fighting all over, anywhere- everywhere, because we have had ENOUGH....? Jews DO serve in the Military, but the HEART of the JEW IS IN Israel, and you being Jewish SHOULD GET this, Totally- 100%. I am the STRONGEST patriot I myself have even met- my love for America is MY SOUL, however, Israel is MY HEART. Israel is Prophecy that has come to pass. IF we are NOT careful here in America, and turn our backs against the Jews and Israel, we WILL face the Wrath of G-d.  Some people forget, I dont- Ariel sharon, gives up Gaza, shakes Bushs hand- a week later, we get Katrina, and Sharon in a Coma for the remaining of his days. As I stated, we should have a more 'healthy' fear of Gd, and enemies should be AFRAID.
  Also- the kkk, and these other wacko sickos ie: C.I., Stormfuggers, etc.., ARE joining the military by the droves, b/c their wizard freak leaders are telling them to LEARN combat, so they can come back and defeat the Jews in America- THIS..............is the TRUTH.  So, HOW is a Jew even protected in the military? By the left? I DONT THINK SO.
 

You make some excellent points here Paulette and I am aware of the growing anti-semitism too. But if I felt as strongly as you do about
the fate of Jews here, I would pack my bags and be on a plane to Tel Aviv in a NY minute. I don't understand why all the people here
who have expressed their first loyalty to Israel are sitting here complaining about America. Why are they not taking
their place in Israel to ensure that no more Sharons get in office? Why aren't the young ones over there serving in the Israeli military?
Talk is cheap. Israel needs Jews to emigrate there badly. Those who are Jews first and Americans second should be in the country
they love first and foremost.

When I was in Israel many years ago, the question I was asked most often is would I make aliyah to Israel? I might have if I could
have gotten a job there, but I only speak Japanese and the Japanese embassy there didn't need anyone. Many Israelis said to me,
"Americans shouldn't just send money here, they should move here."

So I'm asking, why don't all you Israel first people go to Israel?

  Many Jews here will ride out this storm, so that Jerusalem does not come under siege, and we will use all of our influence and power to make sure that USA does not turn its back on Israel- ALSO- the JTF does NOT want US GOVT $$$ going to Israel, it ENABLES palestinians..
  On my fathers side of the family, we have been here over 350 yrs. (IF) USA attacks Israel, I WILL LEAVE, b/c I will NOT stay for the complete devastation and total wrath of Gd. (IF) I even detect this coming, I WILL talk with My David to make Aliyah ASAP. And I mean FAST. Jews will ALWAYS be for Israel 1st. Are we ALL suppose to leave USA, because our hearts and spirits yearn? I dont think so. Christian people yearn for Eternity, I believe, should we tell them to commit suicide, to hurry up along their way? OR, stay in their churches and just dont come out?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

C.F. - I think we have a PC military policy so as not to offend PC America.  Not Saudi overlords.  We have become a weak nation.  That is the one thing I really fault President Bush for when it comes to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.  He should have told civilians to clear out of troubled areas and then leveled them.  We were going to rebuild them anyway.  We always do. 
Who's policy/plan was he following?
I sense a Colin Powell influence.  Isn't he the reason why we left Iraq the first go round?
The American people should grow a backbone and demand the full might of the American military be unleashed - so we can really afford to bring our troops home.

I (respectfully) disagree. This isn't Israel. America is not at the level of brainwashing yet where we are all indoctrinated to think that the highest good is to spare the lives of those who want to kill us. There is not a vast constituency here who is in favor of coddling terrorists and sparing Muslim "civilians". I guarantee you that most Americans want to see all terrorists and those who support them dead. The problem is that we are not an ideological nation at all--in fact, we are dead last in philosophy and culture of the developed West. We are purely consumeristic, hedonistic, and self-seeking. That has spared us, so far, from the full extent of self-hate seen in Israel and Western Europe, but of course it is still far from ideal a place to be.

Bush is the most pro-Saudi president ever. Before that, his daddy, who murdered HaRav Kahane, was. Before him, the beast Ronald Reagan (who threw away both Jonathan Pollard and Chaim Ben Pesach) was. He will do literally anything the Saudis tell him too--they say jump, he asks "how high". He is a junkie for Saudi oil, Chinese manufacturing, and Mexican labor, and will do whatever each of those heads of state tell him to.

[nessuno]

C.F. - I love respectful disagreement!    I agree that we should have no mercy for our enemies. 

Americans are not brainwashed.  They are asleep.  They believe this enemy is 'far' away and we should just leave them alone. They will just go away if we leave them alone - right?    I can't tell you how many times I have heard about the religion of peace.
They think the danger is far away.  9/11 is out of sight /out of mind for most.
Why are Americans not demanding George Bush untie the hands of our military?  Because they do not have the stomach for a real war.  We have become a weak and divided nation.

We are a civilized nation.  We should fight a real PC war.  Declare it.  Tell the civilians to get out.  If they don't...oh well.  Flatten troubled areas.  Do that enough.  Those civilians might put an end to this war themselves.
My family lost a family member during WWII.  She stayed behind in her village with an elderly woman, who wouldn't leave, and was killed in a bombing. It is a sad story but a fact of war...innocent people will die.

[cjd]

Horselady, I have nothing but the highest level of honor and respect for anyone putting on a uniform, but I have to agree with all of the critics of the U.S. military here. The Armed Forces of the United States have become a politically-correct joke in the past 15 years. It started with Bill Clinton having our elite paratroopers dragged through the streets of Mogadishu to feed the starving Somali Muslim Nazis. Then, it got worse, as he sent our forces into action to commit genocide against Serbia. Finally, we have five years of quagmire in Iraq and seven in Afghanistan--both against two-bit foes that wouldn't have lasted three weeks against the U.S. Army of 1945 or even 1991.

Our boys and girls are getting murdered for nothing, because Dubya doesn't want to do anything that would harm so-called Muzzie "civilians", because that would offend his Saudi overlords. I will never support the bravest and most heroic of America's sons and daughters dying to save Muslim Nazis, or because they were forbidden to fight back agains them when getting shot at. We have a president who values al-Qaeda butchers over his own citizens.

That's one point of view. I respect that but don't think it's as black and white as you do. I think history will show that GW Bush was
correct in doing what he did.

All presidents fall under the influence of the forces around them to some extent. Look at Clinton and the whole issue of giving missile technology to the Chinese. This is something I feel was far worse than anything Bush Jr. or Senior ever did. Bush has not been the greatest on key issues but then again we could have done far worse. More and more I come to believe that it is the Pentagon that wanted us to have a footprint in that part of the world Bush only implemented the policy. America is to dependent on foreign oil. Its easy to say we should not be importing oil from that part of the world but when the lights don't go on in your home, the toilet wont flush and the refrigerator is warm you may feel somewhat different. I can't stand the Arabs and I detest the fact that our government has allowed us to become so dependent on them for a commodity that fuels almost everything we touch here in America. While it is possible to transition away from this dependence its not going to happen over night. The Saudis are heavily invested in America and in some ways are as dependent on us as we are on them. They walk a fine line between their Arab brothers and their business relationship with America. As much as they may hate America they can't do without it. The vast amounts of oil they have  is the only thing that has stopped other countries from putting a strangle hold on our economy. In the past 20 years since the last shortage they have always pumped enough oil to avoid any shortage without causing prices to collapse. Its a deal with the devil but we have bigger devils such as a congress that turns its back on domestic production. This is the people that Americans should really look on as the problem. If you really want to understand the relationship between the Bush Family and the Saudi Royals look for a book called House of Bush House of Saud by Craig Unger. I picked up an audio book in the dollar store of it  and thought it might be  a annoying propaganda rant but it was very informative ISBN 0-7435-3718-1 It runs six hours.

[horselady]

All presidents fall under the influence of the forces around them to some extent. Look at Clinton and the whole issue of giving missile technology to the Chinese. This is something I feel was far worse than anything Bush Jr. or Senior ever did. Bush has not been the greatest on key issues but then again we could have done far worse. More and more I come to believe that it is the Pentagon that wanted us to have a footprint in that part of the world Bush only implemented the policy. America is to dependent on foreign oil. Its easy to say we should not be importing oil from that part of the world but when the lights don't go on in your home, the toilet wont flush and the refrigerator is warm you may feel somewhat different. I can't stand the Arabs and I detest the fact that our government has allowed us to become so dependent on them for a commodity that fuels almost everything we touch here in America. While it is possible to transition away from this dependence its not going to happen over night. The Saudis are heavily invested in America and in some ways are as dependent on us as we are on them. They walk a fine line between their Arab brothers and their business relationship with America. As much as they may hate America they can't do without it. The vast amounts of oil they have  is the only thing that has stopped other countries from putting a strangle hold on our economy. In the past 20 years since the last shortage they have always pumped enough oil to avoid any shortage without causing prices to collapse. Its a deal with the devil but we have bigger devils such as a congress that turns its back on domestic production. This is the people that Americans should really look on as the problem. If you really want to understand the relationship between the Bush Family and the Saudi Royals look for a book called House of Bush House of Saud by Craig Unger. I picked up an audio book in the dollar store of it  and thought it might be  a annoying propaganda rant but it was very informative ISBN 0-7435-3718-1 It runs six hours.

Exactly.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Bullcat: I don't think Americans want a PC war or are in favor of sparing "Muzzie civilians". What we do not want, and what I do not want, are American soldiers to needlessly die. I think very few Americans would be unable to sleep at night if a few B-52s loosed some daisycutters on residential neighborhoods of Sadr City (which, had it happened five years ago, would have taken the fight out of the so-called "insurgents" really fast). The Move-Onists are really a very small minority here, and have not had luck in converting the masses thus far.

In this, I do not blame them. We have the technological ability to wage war against most enemy nations without a single casualty. It is extremely possible, and even easy, in this day and age, to wage--and win--an air-only war. You notice the pig Bill Clinton (ys"vz) didn't hesitate to pound all of Serbia back to the Stone Age in 1999, and that was a nation that didn't harm anybody. If most Americans did not care about innocent Serbs getting murdered, I really do not think they will mind so-called Islamic "civilians" getting martyred in the jihad they started.

This is not Israel. America is not at the place yet where average citizens think it is noble to roll over for the people trying to kill you and give them your firstborn. Thankfully, we are not at that level, yet (which may well change after four years of a charismatic and persuasive Obama in the Oval Office). Americans are not an ideological sort at all. We care about getting rich, retiring early, and being safe from harm. Granted, the rest of the West and Israel believe in the first two as well, but they have been thoroughly brainwashed to "respect" Islam and show "mercy" to their enemies. Americans aren't at that level, because we don't trouble our closed little minds with philosophical, political, and moral issues at all, except to the extent that they immediately affect our lives. That has been somewhat of a shield for this nation against all-out treason and self-hatred on the part of the general public. But it doesn't make Americans conducive to an organization like JTF, either.

CJD: Most Americans do not support the hemmorhaging of our lifeblood to the Saudis. Any poll will show that. Most Americans are not opposed to ANWR and offshore drilling. The problem is that we have the finest Congress and Oval Office that petrodollars can buy. We are the only nation on the planet that possesses all of the natural resources it will ever need and refuses to utilize them. Our politicians pretend to want to do something about high gas prices, but since they are 100% dependent on Big Oil and their environmentalist stooges to get reelected, they know full well that there's nothing they are going to actually do about it.

Likewise, most Americans are not happy with the fact that we owe as much as our country is worth to the Chinese--who are literally keeping us from a '30s-style depression with their massive purchases of our worthless treasury bonds. The real problem behind both this, and the PC wars our nation wages these days, is that the public is apathetic--it just doesn't care. Out of sight--out of mind. We only care about our pocketbook and whether we are in imminent danger at any given moment. Seven years (since 9/11) is an eternity for the American brain; the people figure that since no more planes have crashed, the terrorists are at bay. Likewise, none of us really know or care why gas is so expensive: we want politicians to "do something" about it, but are unable to actually do the reading and research that would show them that the politicians are the problem, and not just an accessory to it.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Horselady:

JTF doesn't believe Israelis should serve in the IDF either. Everything that sucks about the U.S. military of today and more is also true of the Israeli army, navy, and air force. If you think U.S. soldiers are indoctrinated from head to toe about how great Muslim "civilians" are and why we should respect their gutter religion, you haven't seen Israel. These days, it's far more likely that the average Israeli infantry conscript will be sent to kick Jews out of their homes than to fight Arabs. In fact, quite a few kapo Israeli "refuseniks" will not serve on any mission in any Arab neighborhood or territory (and of course, they go completely unpunished). This crap is the reason why Chaim would prefer that people not join the Israeli military, right now. It is just not worth it. It has nothing to do with "America first" or "Israel first".