How important is going to Temple to you?

[q_q_]

I'm sure a motley crew shul would not be boring. It may be very interesting, but so would any other oddball experience.  No harm in trying it, but it's worth trying a normal shul too(and not a big one. A small focussed one).

   As long as it is legitimate, there should be no problem. The reform and conservative don't practice Judaism, but Chabad is perfectly legitimate.
[/quote]

legitimate is only rule number 1

you can go very wrong even within legitimate.

The rabbi and the congregants can make a huge difference.  We are talking about the experience here. Not just "is it halachically acceptable".

Just like any shul.  One chabad shul may have a rabbi you like, another one may have one that you don't like.

[takebackourtemple]

Just like any shul.  One chabad shul may have a rabbi you like, another one may have one that you don't like.

   That's kind of what I'm saying, except I'm talking about the entire congregation and it's not mostly a factor of who you like and who you don't but just how you fit in.

[q_q_]

Just like any shul.  One chabad shul may have a rabbi you like, another one may have one that you don't like.

   That's kind of what I'm saying, except I'm talking about the entire congregation and it's not mostly a factor of who you like and who you don't but just how you fit in.

interesting point..
if doing a small shul, to avoid a boring service, then fitting in is important, and I see the benefits of a motley crew shul to a "newbie".

it's worth noting though that in a big shul, it's boring, the service can be -l-o-n-g- , not that spiritual,  unfocussed, petty(people more interested in the national sport - football if in britain, than in the service), it's a social thing. But you can also melt into the background, because it's a big shul.   In a small focussed shul, you'd get more out of it, but finding one where you fit in is important.. And there I see the wisdom of finding a chabad shul that you like. Or some other shul where many people don't know what they're doing.

[AsheDina]

  To me, this is getting more important. More and more important. I see a total degeneration of society, and I feel way out of place, I see people calling things moral when they are not, I see people calling things conservative,. when they are not. I am feeling confused, and recently a feeling of persecution when I get attacked for standing up for righteousness.  I feel lost, and not 'home'.  It is like America not my country anymore, and the people are getting worse and worse.  I feel pressed everywhere, because I want to be strong and correct. I just feel so lost right now, I could just scream.

[q_q_]

  To me, this is getting more important. More and more important. I see a total degeneration of society, and I feel way out of place, I see people calling things moral when they are not, I see people calling things conservative,. when they are not. I am feeling confused, and recently a feeling of persecution when I get attacked for standing up for righteousness.  I feel lost, and not 'home'.  It is like America not my country anymore, and the people are getting worse and worse.  I feel pressed everywhere, because I want to be strong and correct. I just feel so lost right now, I could just scream.

if you didn't give leftists the time of day, didn't talk to them, didn't debate them, then it wouldn't affect you so much.

your physical home is still void of leftists, and on the internet, you have JTF which is right wing.

I find that I don't talk about politics much, because the left aren't worth talking to, (and i'm not friendly with leftists anyway).  And my friends would agree with me anyway, and most of what we'd have to say on politics they already know as obvious.
JTF is the only place I discuss politics really.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Anyway attending Schul in Sabbat is out of the question from my part, at most I might go in the high holidays.

I know Q_Q_ and Tzvi won't like what I have to say and I'm not advocating that people drive, but go to one where most of the members do.
   Go to a Friday night service instead of a Saturday morning one and then stay for the meal afterwards. You will have interesting conversations with people at the dinner table. If you choose the right congregation, this will not be boring and will serve as a step towards becoming more familiar with the services.

Are you implying that people who walk to shul won't make for interesting conversation?   

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I know Q_Q_ and Tzvi won't like what I have to say and I'm not advocating that people drive, but go to one where most of the members do.

 You are correct and I will state why-. The reason why this is NOT a good place to go to is because then the chances are that they dont have 10 Jewish men who keep Shabb-t, therefore it is NOT a minyan. Why would anyone want to be at such a place. Anyway a shul is a Holy place to talk to G-d. One can talk to G-d anywhere (except unclean places of-course), but in a shul and with a Minyan the prayers are more and faster accepted, + one can answer Amen to blessings (we should say at least 90 Amens a day to blessings and make 100 blessings a day).
  Also the talk about Minyan being a social thing- it is NOT for social reasons. Sure you can say hi, bye, maybe meet someone new, etc. But it is absolutly forbidden to talk in shul, expecially during prayers. And if one cannot control him/herself then they should just not come to shul- just pray at home. -The Rambam says that one who talks in shul, should be asked to leave, and if he doesn't leave, you can even force him to (even physically if it gets to it).

[muman613]

I know Q_Q_ and Tzvi won't like what I have to say and I'm not advocating that people drive, but go to one where most of the members do.

 You are correct and I will state why-. The reason why this is NOT a good place to go to is because then the chances are that they dont have 10 Jewish men who keep Shabbat, therefore it is NOT a minyan. Why would anyone want to be at such a place. Anyway a shul is a Holy place to talk to G-d. One can talk to G-d anywhere (except unclean places of-course), but in a shul and with a Minyan the prayers are more and faster accepted, + one can answer Amen to blessings (we should say at least 90 Amens a day to blessings and make 100 blessings a day).
  Also the talk about Minyan being a social thing- it is NOT for social reasons. Sure you can say hi, bye, maybe meet someone new, etc. But it is absolutly forbidden to talk in shul, expecially during prayers. And if one cannot control him/herself then they should just not come to shul- just pray at home. -The Rambam says that one who talks in shul, should be asked to leave, and if he doesn't leave, you can even force him to (even physically if it gets to it).

Tzvi,

I will just say once again that the issue, from my perspective, is not that shul is a place for socializing. It is rather a place to be a part of the Jewish community. The purpose of minyan is because a prayer by a community, for a community, is heard by Hashem and given more power than a prayer by an individual. When praying for the recovery of health {Refuah Shlemah} it is always more desirable to be in a minyan. I agree that is is wrong, and very very wrong, to talk in shul during any of the prayer service.

muman613

[takebackourtemple]

Are you implying that people who walk to shul won't make for interesting conversation?   

   That is not my point. I'm not advocating breaking the laws of shabbat either, but understand that people do. I am making suggestions though based on what has worked in my case.
   The point I'm trying to make is that it is important to fit in as part of the congregation and not as an outsider who just sits there. A newbie may not enjoy a black hat congregation enough to want to go as much as possible. I have nothing against black hat congregations, besides not being crazy about the hats. I have gone to them periodically. People are always nice there and always invite me to meal, however, they live a lifestyle which is different from mine and I am always an outsider.
   When I go to my congregation, I thank Hashem every time I get there for providing such a wonderful place. Shabbat has become something I look forward to and this has only started since I found my congregation.

[takebackourtemple]

The reason why this is NOT a good place to go to is because then the chances are that they dont have 10 Jewish men who keep Shabbat, therefore it is NOT a minyan.

   No matter what the congregation is, this a great reason to go. By going, you might be the 10th person. This may mean completing a Minyan for nine people who really need it. Maybe someone needs to say Kaddish. You have no clue how many times I have made sure I was there so the congregation could have a Minyan.

[takebackourtemple]

One last response in a row.

   Another suggestion that I have for a Newbie is to prepare or do something. Things I have prepared and done include.

1. Doing my own Kiddush, which they let me do every week now.
2. Preparing a Dvar Torah.
3. Reading a Torah Passage.
4. Reading an Aliya.
5. Leading a song.
6. Doing Havdalah.

   By contributing to the services, you feel closer to them.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The reason why this is NOT a good place to go to is because then the chances are that they dont have 10 Jewish men who keep Shabbat, therefore it is NOT a minyan.

   No matter what the congregation is, this a great reason to go. By going, you might be the 10th person. This may mean completing a Minyan for nine people who really need it. Maybe someone needs to say Kaddish. You have no clue how many times I have made sure I was there so the congregation could have a Minyan.

 I dont think that you understood me correctly. I was saying what the Shulhan Aruch (and I heard Rabbi's say) that one who is not Shomer Shabb-t is not and cannot be counted as part of the minyan, SOO if you have 6 men who are Shomer Shabb-t, 2 non-shomer Shabb-t (at least knowingly) and then you come to be the tenth, it is Not a real minyan and then it would be 6 + you(assuming the person is also Shomer Shabb-t)= 7, and not 10. It could also be a Bracha Levatallah (a Blessing said in vain) which is also a sin. So in this case it would have been better praying at home.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Also your PM to me (Im sharing it becuase I know that you would not mind- its nothing personal, etc.)
 "You mentioned that a Minyan is not a great place to go it there is a risk of not having 10 people."

  I did not say that. If their is a risk of having or not having, then it is good to go. But like you suggested that one goes to pray with people who dont keep Shabb-t, then it is not good (if they dont have 10 Shomer Shabb-t men).

[takebackourtemple]

I dont think that you understood me correctly. I was saying what the Shulhan Aruch (and I heard Rabbi's say) that one who is not Shomer Shabbat is not and cannot be counted as part of the minyan.

   This is the first I'm hearing of this. This will be my question for Chaim this week. To the best of my understanding the only two requirements are to be Jewish and to be bar mitzvad. I know that I have been part of Minyans where Jews without much identity just stand there and they still count. The only thing that gets confusing in my congregation is that we have members who are going through the conversion process that don't count. We had nine one time, but many people thought he was the tenth and said the prayers that they wouldn't have if they knew. I wouldn't say their prayers were in vain, because they were recited per the shema with all their heart and all their soul.

[takebackourtemple]

   I asked several Rabbis and they all said that the Jews count. I have never been to any congregation that did not count me or anyone else because we were not Shomer Shabbat. Maybe this is a Satmar or Nazi Karta custom.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I heard it said both by Rabbi Mizrachi and by my Rabbi. Sorry, but it is written in the Shulhan Aruch. If you dont take my word for it then email Rabbi Mizrachi and ask if he said and believes it (and if he said that it is written in the Shulhan Aruch). - Whatever it is NOT a personal thing, im just telling you what I was told is the correct Halacha. And anyway IF their are people who dont know or dont follow the Halacha correctly you can ask then why they are not following it and which poskim argue with the Shulhan Aruch in this regard?
 Also one more thing- one CAN be part of a Minyan, but is not counted as one of the ten men. Just like a shul that has 100 women and 9 Shomer Shabb-t men, is not a minyan,

[q_q_]

I heard it said both by Rabbi Mizrachi and by my Rabbi. Sorry, but it is written in the Shulhan Aruch. If you dont take my word for it then email Rabbi Mizrachi and ask if he said and believes it (and if he said that it is written in the Shulhan Aruch). - Whatever it is NOT a personal thing, im just telling you what I was told is the correct Halacha. And anyway IF their are people who dont know or dont follow the Halacha correctly you can ask then why they are not following it and which poskim argue with the Shulhan Aruch in this regard?
 Also one more thing- one CAN be part of a Minyan, but is not counted as one of the ten men. Just like a shul that has 100 women and 9 Shomer Shabbat men, is not a minyan,

suppose a person tears toilet paper?

some may use a flannel on shabbat, squeezing it.  but apparently that's forbidden.

in a season of bad hayfever, somebody might carry a tissue.

You can't know if people have kept shabbat.   Some may be convinced that they have, but really have only done 90% not 100%! 

[Shamgar]

suppose a person tears toilet paper?

some may use a flannel on shabbat, squeezing it.  but apparently that's forbidden.

in a season of bad hayfever, somebody might carry a tissue.

You can't know if people have kept shabbat.   Some may be convinced that they have, but really have only done 90% not 100%! 

If toilet paper is out of the question, then I guess you can't use a bidet either?

[takebackourtemple]

I heard it said both by Rabbi Mizrachi and by my Rabbi. Sorry, but it is written in the Shulhan Aruch. If you dont take my word for it then email Rabbi Mizrachi and ask if he said and believes it (and if he said that it is written in the Shulhan Aruch). - Whatever it is NOT a personal thing, im just telling you what I was told is the correct Halacha. And anyway IF their are people who dont know or dont follow the Halacha correctly you can ask then why they are not following it and which poskim argue with the Shulhan Aruch in this regard?
 Also one more thing- one CAN be part of a Minyan, but is not counted as one of the ten men. Just like a shul that has 100 women and 9 Shomer Shabbat men, is not a minyan,

   What exactly does the Shulhan Aruch say? Do the Sephardim also follow this compilation? I don't know much about Rabbi Mizrachi. If you show me something, where either the Rav or the Rebbe support this Idea I will take it seriously than a Rabbi from Monsey.
   I do understand that if Jews are impure by doing something such as not fasting on a fast day they are not supposed to receive Aliyas or perform certain Mitzvot, but being counted as part of the Minyan still holds.
   The only exception that I can see against counting a bar Mitzvad Jew is if they are not willingly to be part of the Minyan. If they are forced to stand there but refuse to contribute to the prayers, they are not accepting of them. If someone just doesn't have the capacity to say his own prayers, but wants to, the leader of the Minyan can still say them for him even if misguided Jew just ate a Bacon Double Cheeseburger from McDonalds.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

suppose a person tears toilet paper?

some may use a flannel on shabbat, squeezing it.  but apparently that's forbidden.

in a season of bad hayfever, somebody might carry a tissue.

You can't know if people have kept shabbat.   Some may be convinced that they have, but really have only done 90% not 100%! 

suppose a person tears toilet paper?

some may use a flannel on shabbat, squeezing it.  but apparently that's forbidden.

in a season of bad hayfever, somebody might carry a tissue.

You can't know if people have kept shabbat.   Some may be convinced that they have, but really have only done 90% not 100%! 

 I think the Shulhan Aruch and Rabbis who have said it are talking about open desecrators. So in this case, I personally dont think it might be too appropriate to ask or assume that one breaks Shabb-t - knowingly , but if you see one driving on Shabb-t, or saying that they break Shabb-t, etc. then they are public Shabb-t desecrators.
 With your question we can ask many others- for example- can you trust that Rabbi, who knows maybe he does a, b, c, or d behind closed doors. So I dont think it is relevent, and if it was then their NEVER would be a possibility of a court case in any manner, because who knows what a person might do privatly?
  Also once again, if someone does not know the laws correctly, it definitly is bad, we should all do tishuva for things we might not have known at one time or another, but it is a different level of knowingly doing an avera, (and I know that some including me in the past, might think that - ooh well I'll keep myself ignorant and not be responsible, but that is still wrong).

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

"even if misguided Jew just ate a Bacon Double Cheeseburger from McDonalds."

 I never spoke about that avera, and yes that person is part of a minyan. Even a murderer can be part of a minyan (in the sense that it wasn't officially said that he cant), but someone who is not Shomer Shabb-t, is not counted. Also if he or she touches regular wine then it is not allowed for a Jew to drink it, unless it is Yayin Mevushal.
 Please one more thing- dont take or many any of this personally. It is not a personal thing that is being discussed, and I'm not condemning anyone, but I'm just saying what I heard (from 2 sources, and about the wine many other places as well). Anyway why would a Rabbi from Monsey be disqualified? He is not making it up, he is taking it from the Shulhan Aruch. And you asked if Sefardim follow it? Definitly- much more then the Askenazim (and I know that the Yayin issue everyone accepts, and about the Minyan - I assume that everyone (that matters- I mean the Poskim also agree, because no one argues against it).
  And about what exactly it says- i wont be able to search and provide it right now, but if you would like, email Rav Mizrachi, I believe you will get the exact response.

[takebackourtemple]

"even if misguided Jew just ate a Bacon Double Cheeseburger from McDonalds."

 I never spoke about that avera, and yes that person is part of a minyan. Even a murderer can be part of a minyan (in the sense that it wasn't officially said that he cant), but someone who is not Shomer Shabbat, is not counted. Also if he or she touches regular wine then it is not allowed for a Jew to drink it, unless it is Yayin Mevushal.
 Please one more thing- dont take or many any of this personally. It is not a personal thing that is being discussed, and I'm not condemning anyone, but I'm just saying what I heard (from 2 sources, and about the wine many other places as well). Anyway why would a Rabbi from Monsey be disqualified? He is not making it up, he is taking it from the Shulhan Aruch. And you asked if Sefaradim follow it? Definitly- much more then the Askenazim (and I know that the Yayin issue everyone accepts, and about the Minyan - I assume that everyone (that matters- I mean the Poskim also agree, because no one argues against it).
  And about what exactly it says- i wont be able to search and provide it right now, but if you would like, email Rav Mizrachi, I believe you will get the exact response.

   I'll wait for you to provide the source as you may be correct. I really don't have much desire to converse with Rabbi Mizrachi unless you can get him to come here and support JTF.

   About those who don't count, I don't know if my logic of someone not accepting the prayers holds true or not, but if it does and you have 10 people of which 4 are not Shomer Shabbat and 1 does not accept them because of it, then it is the 1 person that breaks the minyan and not the 4.

[muman613]

takebackourtemple,

I have heard the poskim of which Tzvi is referring to.

I found the following link to a Ask the Rabbi: http://ask.revach.net/article.php?id=507


Halacha - Minyan qualifications
Submitted by anonymous  Answered by Rav Peretz Moncharsh
Question: For purposes of counting a minyan to say kaddish, kedusha, etc do all 10 males have to be completely shomer shabbat? If some drive to shul on Shabbos are they disqualified from being counted?

Answer: If they grew up observant and rejected Judaism, they may not be counted. However, if they were raised without a proper Jewish education but they believe in Hashem, then they are considered a tinok sh'nishba, a child who was kidnapped and raised by non-Jews, and may in cases of necessity be counted, although it is preferable not to.


Apparently the Halacha is dependent on whether the individual is Frum From Birth or a Baal Teshuva.

muman613

[takebackourtemple]

"Answer: If they grew up observant and rejected Judaism, they may not be counted. However, if they were raised without a proper Jewish education but they believe in Hashem, then they are considered a tinok sh'nishba, a child who was kidnapped and raised by non-Jews, and may in cases of necessity be counted, although it is preferable not to."

   Personally I don't think this is a good answer. The only thing I can agree with is that if they reject the Minyan, they are not part of it. Nobody is perfect though. I wouldn't say that parents are non-Jews just because they fail to properly educate their children.
   Another question becomes what if you have ten people present and Hashem really wants there to be a minyan. Because people are stuck up, his mitzvot to have the minyan are not followed.

[muman613]

"Answer: If they grew up observant and rejected Judaism, they may not be counted. However, if they were raised without a proper Jewish education but they believe in Hashem, then they are considered a tinok sh'nishba, a child who was kidnapped and raised by non-Jews, and may in cases of necessity be counted, although it is preferable not to."

   Personally I don't think this is a good answer. The only thing I can agree with is that if they reject the Minyan, they are not part of it. Nobody is perfect though. I wouldn't say that parents are non-Jews just because they fail to properly educate their children.
   Another question becomes what if you have ten people present and Hashem really wants there to be a minyan. Because people are stuck up, his mitzvot to have the minyan are not followed.

Wow takebackourtemple,

You think being Shomer Shabbos is being stuck up? This is very sad. Every Jew should strive to observe Shabbat. Do you know how many times in Torah the command to Observe and Guard Shabbos occurs? More than any other mitzvah in the Torah.

It is not stuck up to obey the mitzvot. It is sad that this is your impression.

muman613

PS: Do you know what Kedusha is? It means being holy, being seperate from the mundane. Those who engage in melachot during Shabbat are removing themselves from holiness.

PPS: Ask any Orthodox rabbi which is more important, refraining from Melachot or going to minyan. Obviously the answer is refraining from Melachot. It is preferrable to daven at home than have to violate melachot. This is well known.

PSS: Learn a little bit about Shabbat @ http://www.answers.com/topic/shabbat
http://www.torahtots.com/shabbat/shabbat1.htm