Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
How important is going to Temple to you?
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
"even if misguided Jew just ate a Bacon Double Cheeseburger from McDonalds."
I never spoke about that avera, and yes that person is part of a minyan. Even a murderer can be part of a minyan (in the sense that it wasn't officially said that he cant), but someone who is not Shomer Shabb-t, is not counted. Also if he or she touches regular wine then it is not allowed for a Jew to drink it, unless it is Yayin Mevushal.
Please one more thing- dont take or many any of this personally. It is not a personal thing that is being discussed, and I'm not condemning anyone, but I'm just saying what I heard (from 2 sources, and about the wine many other places as well). Anyway why would a Rabbi from Monsey be disqualified? He is not making it up, he is taking it from the Shulhan Aruch. And you asked if Sefardim follow it? Definitly- much more then the Askenazim (and I know that the Yayin issue everyone accepts, and about the Minyan - I assume that everyone (that matters- I mean the Poskim also agree, because no one argues against it).
And about what exactly it says- i wont be able to search and provide it right now, but if you would like, email Rav Mizrachi, I believe you will get the exact response.
takebackourtemple:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on September 09, 2008, 08:14:29 PM ---"even if misguided Jew just ate a Bacon Double Cheeseburger from McDonalds."
I never spoke about that avera, and yes that person is part of a minyan. Even a murderer can be part of a minyan (in the sense that it wasn't officially said that he cant), but someone who is not Shomer Shabbat, is not counted. Also if he or she touches regular wine then it is not allowed for a Jew to drink it, unless it is Yayin Mevushal.
Please one more thing- dont take or many any of this personally. It is not a personal thing that is being discussed, and I'm not condemning anyone, but I'm just saying what I heard (from 2 sources, and about the wine many other places as well). Anyway why would a Rabbi from Monsey be disqualified? He is not making it up, he is taking it from the Shulhan Aruch. And you asked if Sefaradim follow it? Definitly- much more then the Askenazim (and I know that the Yayin issue everyone accepts, and about the Minyan - I assume that everyone (that matters- I mean the Poskim also agree, because no one argues against it).
And about what exactly it says- i wont be able to search and provide it right now, but if you would like, email Rav Mizrachi, I believe you will get the exact response.
--- End quote ---
I'll wait for you to provide the source as you may be correct. I really don't have much desire to converse with Rabbi Mizrachi unless you can get him to come here and support JTF.
About those who don't count, I don't know if my logic of someone not accepting the prayers holds true or not, but if it does and you have 10 people of which 4 are not Shomer Shabbat and 1 does not accept them because of it, then it is the 1 person that breaks the minyan and not the 4.
muman613:
takebackourtemple,
I have heard the poskim of which Tzvi is referring to.
I found the following link to a Ask the Rabbi: http://ask.revach.net/article.php?id=507
Halacha - Minyan qualifications
Submitted by anonymous Answered by Rav Peretz Moncharsh
Question: For purposes of counting a minyan to say kaddish, kedusha, etc do all 10 males have to be completely shomer shabbat? If some drive to shul on Shabbos are they disqualified from being counted?
Answer: If they grew up observant and rejected Judaism, they may not be counted. However, if they were raised without a proper Jewish education but they believe in Hashem, then they are considered a tinok sh'nishba, a child who was kidnapped and raised by non-Jews, and may in cases of necessity be counted, although it is preferable not to.
Apparently the Halacha is dependent on whether the individual is Frum From Birth or a Baal Teshuva.
muman613
takebackourtemple:
"Answer: If they grew up observant and rejected Judaism, they may not be counted. However, if they were raised without a proper Jewish education but they believe in Hashem, then they are considered a tinok sh'nishba, a child who was kidnapped and raised by non-Jews, and may in cases of necessity be counted, although it is preferable not to."
Personally I don't think this is a good answer. The only thing I can agree with is that if they reject the Minyan, they are not part of it. Nobody is perfect though. I wouldn't say that parents are non-Jews just because they fail to properly educate their children.
Another question becomes what if you have ten people present and Hashem really wants there to be a minyan. Because people are stuck up, his mitzvot to have the minyan are not followed.
muman613:
--- Quote from: takebackourtemple on September 09, 2008, 11:13:43 PM ---"Answer: If they grew up observant and rejected Judaism, they may not be counted. However, if they were raised without a proper Jewish education but they believe in Hashem, then they are considered a tinok sh'nishba, a child who was kidnapped and raised by non-Jews, and may in cases of necessity be counted, although it is preferable not to."
Personally I don't think this is a good answer. The only thing I can agree with is that if they reject the Minyan, they are not part of it. Nobody is perfect though. I wouldn't say that parents are non-Jews just because they fail to properly educate their children.
Another question becomes what if you have ten people present and Hashem really wants there to be a minyan. Because people are stuck up, his mitzvot to have the minyan are not followed.
--- End quote ---
Wow takebackourtemple,
You think being Shomer Shabbos is being stuck up? This is very sad. Every Jew should strive to observe Shabbat. Do you know how many times in Torah the command to Observe and Guard Shabbos occurs? More than any other mitzvah in the Torah.
It is not stuck up to obey the mitzvot. It is sad that this is your impression.
muman613
PS: Do you know what Kedusha is? It means being holy, being seperate from the mundane. Those who engage in melachot during Shabbat are removing themselves from holiness.
PPS: Ask any Orthodox rabbi which is more important, refraining from Melachot or going to minyan. Obviously the answer is refraining from Melachot. It is preferrable to daven at home than have to violate melachot. This is well known.
PSS: Learn a little bit about Shabbat @ http://www.answers.com/topic/shabbat
http://www.torahtots.com/shabbat/shabbat1.htm
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