Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Targeting Civilian Areas During Wartime
muman613:
--- Quote from: Mo1988 on September 04, 2008, 11:07:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: republicandox on August 20, 2008, 09:13:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on August 20, 2008, 08:56:13 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 20, 2008, 08:06:41 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on August 20, 2008, 07:32:31 PM ---Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.
--- End quote ---
Tzvi,
I think he is referring to the innocent people killed... It is a mitzvah to kill those who rise to kill us, but each person must be judged. When they use human shields it makes it too difficult to determine who is the 'bad' guy and the good guy. So, inevitably, some innocent good people get killed.
Imagine that 2 terrorists are in a building which has 200 people in it. Is it justified to destroy the entire building, killing all 200 people, just to kill the 2 terrorists? This is an ethical dilemma.
muman613
--- End quote ---
No it is NOT a dilemma. And if you are asking me if I believe it is right to do, or if I would do it? Absolutly. We need to stop worrying about the so-called innocent civilians. At a time of war, you are at war. And at war, you need to WIN. Winning consists of- destroying your enemy, and surviving (both as an individual and the collective that is part of your side).
--- End quote ---
We must win this war at any cost...Islam is a Snake that is swallowing our World and we must cut it's head off! Civilians will die and we cannot do anything for them due to their connections to Islam and terrorists. That is why I feel we will not be blamed by G-d. The death of civilians was not our faults. The Muslims killed them by using them as shields in the first place. It is sad to see innocent people suffer and die but if this war is not won and the Muslims take over...this World will be one giant blood bath.
P.S. May G-d bless the United States of America and L' Chaim Yisrael !!!
Shalom from Dox
--- End quote ---
Brilliant comparison. I say that Islam is more like an aggressive cancer, however. In order to kill the cancerous cells you must also kill harmless cells. There is always danger that the harmless cells can mutate. Gotta do what you gotta to protect yourself.
--- End quote ---
There is a limit as to how many innocents you can kill before it is considered murder. As I have said repeatedly, I am 100% for eradicating the terrorist enemy. As a victim of terror I will never lie down and wait for them to kill me, as they have already killed my brother. I want justice against the murderer who took my innocent brother and dragged him and his memory into this hellhole of politics and geopolitical warfare. But just as much as my anger rages against the wicked, I also am inclined to believe Torahs precept that ALL LIFE is sacred and has a spark of Hashem in it. I do not even for a second contemplate flying a plane into a building full of non-threatening arabs. Nor do I even entertain a thought about driving a bulldozer into a crowd of innocent arabs in the middle of the day. I dont dream about going into a Islamic school and shooting the students. I think I know why these thoughts dont plague me. This is because Judaism is not a religion of vengeance. Hashem brings about everything in the world, our strengths and our weaknesses. Islam is a threat because we have let it happen. If we, the Jews, were more concerned about keeping Hashems word, his covenant to us, then our stature in the world would be much different.
I want to see the destruction of the wicked in this world. And when Hashem commands that we obliterate Amaleks memory from this world, I take it seriously. But truthfully I dont believe that these Arabs are Amalek. I have more fear from the Persians in Iraq getting Nuclear weapons. If the Jews who are supposed to be in control in Hollywood and Washington really were Jews they would be affecting public opinion in Israels favor. Instead just about every mainstream media in existance today is anti-Israel in its bias. I have written numerous publications to complain about this and several have actually called me and allowed me to vent to them how wrong it is.
So I understand the desire to kill them all and let Hashem sort them out. It is good when it is time to act. But I have to have mercy on the innocents who may not be in control of their circumstances. When a valuable target in known to be in a location then I see that maybe it is worth it, but it is a very difficult call.
muman613
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
"This is because Judaism is not a religion of vengeance."
That's where you are wrong. You, like most Jews (im talking about Religious), see everyone as having this great value. Vengence,when appropriate is a great thing. G-d's name is associated with vengence, also vengence is a form of Kiddush Hashe-m. You should learn Or'Harayon, the chapter called "Revenge".
GoIsraelGo!:
--- Quote from: muman613 on September 05, 2008, 12:58:59 AM ---
--- Quote from: Mo1988 on September 04, 2008, 11:07:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: republicandox on August 20, 2008, 09:13:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on August 20, 2008, 08:56:13 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 20, 2008, 08:06:41 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on August 20, 2008, 07:32:31 PM ---Republic -right, except this "I do believe that Hashem will forgive us"
What is the sin? Its not a sin, infact it would be a Mitzva to do what is necessary to protect one's people agains't a hostile nation that wants to kill you. So in this aspect if it is done, then forgiveness is not needed because their is no sin.
--- End quote ---
Tzvi,
I think he is referring to the innocent people killed... It is a mitzvah to kill those who rise to kill us, but each person must be judged. When they use human shields it makes it too difficult to determine who is the 'bad' guy and the good guy. So, inevitably, some innocent good people get killed.
Imagine that 2 terrorists are in a building which has 200 people in it. Is it justified to destroy the entire building, killing all 200 people, just to kill the 2 terrorists? This is an ethical dilemma.
muman613
--- End quote ---
No it is NOT a dilemma. And if you are asking me if I believe it is right to do, or if I would do it? Absolutly. We need to stop worrying about the so-called innocent civilians. At a time of war, you are at war. And at war, you need to WIN. Winning consists of- destroying your enemy, and surviving (both as an individual and the collective that is part of your side).
--- End quote ---
We must win this war at any cost...Islam is a Snake that is swallowing our World and we must cut it's head off! Civilians will die and we cannot do anything for them due to their connections to Islam and terrorists. That is why I feel we will not be blamed by G-d. The death of civilians was not our faults. The Muslims killed them by using them as shields in the first place. It is sad to see innocent people suffer and die but if this war is not won and the Muslims take over...this World will be one giant blood bath.
P.S. May G-d bless the United States of America and L' Chaim Yisrael !!!
Shalom from Dox
--- End quote ---
Brilliant comparison. I say that Islam is more like an aggressive cancer, however. In order to kill the cancerous cells you must also kill harmless cells. There is always danger that the harmless cells can mutate. Gotta do what you gotta to protect yourself.
--- End quote ---
There is a limit as to how many innocents you can kill before it is considered murder. As I have said repeatedly, I am 100% for eradicating the terrorist enemy. As a victim of terror I will never lie down and wait for them to kill me, as they have already killed my brother. I want justice against the murderer who took my innocent brother and dragged him and his memory into this hellhole of politics and geopolitical warfare. But just as much as my anger rages against the wicked, I also am inclined to believe Torahs precept that ALL LIFE is sacred and has a spark of Hashem in it. I do not even for a second contemplate flying a plane into a building full of non-threatening arabs. Nor do I even entertain a thought about driving a bulldozer into a crowd of innocent arabs in the middle of the day. I dont dream about going into a Islamic school and shooting the students. I think I know why these thoughts dont plague me. This is because Judaism is not a religion of vengeance. Hashem brings about everything in the world, our strengths and our weaknesses. Islam is a threat because we have let it happen. If we, the Jews, were more concerned about keeping Hashems word, his covenant to us, then our stature in the world would be much different.
I want to see the destruction of the wicked in this world. And when Hashem commands that we obliterate Amaleks memory from this world, I take it seriously. But truthfully I dont believe that these Arabs are Amalek. I have more fear from the Persians in Iraq getting Nuclear weapons. If the Jews who are supposed to be in control in Hollywood and Washington really were Jews they would be affecting public opinion in Israels favor. Instead just about every mainstream media in existance today is anti-Israel in its bias. I have written numerous publications to complain about this and several have actually called me and allowed me to vent to them how wrong it is.
So I understand the desire to kill them all and let Hashem sort them out. It is good when it is time to act. But I have to have mercy on the innocents who may not be in control of their circumstances. When a valuable target in known to be in a location then I see that maybe it is worth it, but it is a very difficult call.
muman613
--- End quote ---
Shalom Muman, I understand what you are saying regarding all life is precious. I don't disagree with that but what I have trouble with is this: How could it be our fault if civilians die as a result of the enemy using them as shields? I would assume that G-d will blame the enemy who put the innocents in harms way. The enemy is relying on this tactic of ( guilt ) to defeat us. If we do not kill the enemy hiding in civilian areas, then this means the enemy has won and will be encouraged to do this further. I think the question is this: Do we place ourselves in more danger by saving the innocent civilians? Will we lose more innocent lives because we wanted to save a few innocents civilians? This is a catch 22 situation morally speaking. Personally if civilians died from our fire, I don't see how G-d could blame us if we were left with no choice. I feel if the enemy wins, more innocents will die and that is what we are trying to prevent in the first place.
Shalom from Dox
P.S. Have a Good Shabbos !!!
muman613:
Shalom Dox,
Yes, I am fully with you on this... My point is that we must be sure that we are actively getting the enemy. I agree that we are not guilty when they use their own people as human shields. They are the ones guilty of putting their own people in the middle of the conflict. I do not feel sorry about that and know that Hashem wants us to do what we can to protect ourselves, our families, and our nation. We are in agreement.
But it is important to remain human and not allow anger to be the trigger which unleashes death on everyone we dislike. We dont want to become like our enemies where life is denigrated to nothing. Moral compass is something which must not get lost.
Shalom and have a very good Shabbat,
muman613
The One and Only Mo:
Infinity Arabs do not equal the life of one Jew. If the only way to protect one, single Jew - - - let alone thousands and millions - - - is by total genocide, is it not logical to do so? If you're allowed to do anything to protect yourself, is there a limit to how many people you can kill? If the only choice you have is to kill them before they kill you, your family, and your loved ones, are you really going to contemplate otherwise? JTF has been warning for years that this is a war, it will get only worse, and I don't want to risk our lives for the chance that maybe they are innocent. There are no guarantees in life. You don't see parents tell their kids to not look both ways when you cross a street, to talk to strangers, or to open the dooor without asking. Sometimes it's okay to do otherwise. But are you really going to risk it? Are you really going to take a chance and ha faith in these "people"? If those Arabs that we kill are truly "harmless" then Hashem will put them in a better place. But I'm not going to entertain the possibility that they aren't dangerous because of a) history b) Jewish Law c) take a look at the world. Maybe I just love my fellow Jews too way much. Or maybe I just understand the truth about war, self-defense, and Islam.
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