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muman613:
Excerpt from interview from 1992:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2944/jewish/Belief-in-Moshiach.htm
HANDELMAN:
Here again, one might also think of these events as just part of another cycle in history. That is, there are always periods of great reform and progressive hope, and then a regression to oppression and war. Hearing about this new emphasis on Moshiach, some people fear that you're setting yourself up for disappointment, and that it's very dangerous to read into these events some impending arrival of the Moshiach, because it hasn't happened for the last several thousand years.
FRIEDMAN:
That's exactly true, and that's why it has to happen now. This fear of disappointment, I think, is a very invalid and insubstantial argument. There's always a chance that we might fail in the things we hope for, the things we work hard for. But that is not an argument against doing it.
HANDELMAN:
Nevertheless, in the past in Jewish history, when Messianic movements have arisen, such as Bar-Kochba or Shabbetai Zvi, the resulting disappointment was disastrous for the Jewish people. This disappointment is not a simple thing, it's not like being disappointed in love --
FRIEDMAN:
The stronger the virtue, the greater is the damage if it doesn't work. But we should distinguish between today and the past failures of Bar-Kochba and Shabbetai Zvi. Really the two are very different: Bar-Kochba didn't turn out to be a disaster; he just didn't accomplish the goal.
Shabbetai Zvi turned out to be a disaster. But what they all have in common, all the past Messianic fervor, is that they happened in a time of great trouble, when people were really desperate, when they had reached the bottom of the cycle, and the only way to go was up; and it had to be Moshiach - which is understandable. When things are that dark, you have to hope for something, you have to look forward to something.
On the other hand, it is still a virtue and a compliment to the Jewish people that our faith is so strong that for 3,000 years we have been consistently confident of his arrival. And what's unique about this time around is that we're doing very well. There is no great trouble. Things are relatively good for Jews today.
HANDELMAN:
Many people agree that the concept of Moshiach is important in Judaism, but point to passages in the Talmud which say that we mustn't speculate about these things -- that we can anticipate Moshiach, but we're not supposed to inquire into whom it is or talk about signs of the times.
FRIEDMAN:
On the one hand, the Talmud in Sanhedrin says that the Sages were very unhappy with people who set dates and made predictions about the time of Moshiach's arrival. But on the other hand, anyone who doesn't expect Moshiach every day is a heretic. So how do we reconcile this?
HANDELMAN:
How do we?
FRIEDMAN:
If the average person were to start making predictions and say, "I think according to the signs, to the stars, to the this, that, and the other, that Moshiach is coming tomorrow," that is wrong. Moshiach is coming today, always today, never tomorrow, never next week or next month, because we're not supposed to rely on signs. We're supposed to believe and trust that G-d said that He's going to send Moshiach, and G-d will send him today. That's the only resolution to this kind of conflict.
So on the one hand, yes, it's true that we shouldn't play around with predictions. But on the other hand, if somebody says, "I know Moshiach and he's alive today," that's great --
HANDELMAN:
You just said a minute ago that it's wrong for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to start making these predictions.
FRIEDMAN:
We're not talking about predictions. The predictions are not kosher. But if somebody says, "Moshiach is here; I know someone, and he is Moshiach," that's fine.
HANDELMAN:
In the passage you quoted earlier, Maimonides says you can "assume" someone is Moshiach, but you don't know it for sure unless certain conditions are met.
FRIEDMAN:
Right. Assume it, and hope it, like Rabbi Akiva did. He went and carried Bar Kochba's armor for him.
HANDELMAN:
But as with Shabbetai Zvi, we have seen that when people do get very worked up about Moshiach and they're wrong, the consequences are bad.
FRIEDMAN:
But how can you reconcile this fear of a false Moshiach with your belief in Moshiach? What does your belief in Moshiach consist of if you're afraid that he might be a false Moshiach?
When the real Moshiach does come, what are we going to say? Who's going to believe him? Are we going to say, "Got to be careful -- remember Shabbetai Zvi?"
HANDELMAN:
Still people find finger-pointing very unsettling. They feel that it's very dangerous to point to someone and claim that he is the Moshiach.
FRIEDMAN:
If people can point a finger to someone and say, "This is Moshiach," that simply shows how alive and vibrant their faith in Moshiach is. Whether this person is or is not Moshiach is irrelevant.
HANDELMAN:
Would you say that it is irrelevant even if, for example, we decide on the wrong person? New religions have been formed as a result of the belief that certain persons were the Moshiach, and Judaism suffered considerably when these other religions persecuted the Jews for refusing to accept these "Messiahs."
FRIEDMAN:
The same is true of belief in G-d: The belief in G-d has been the cause of a lot of suffering, too. If you believe in the wrong god, or you start fighting over who G-d is, it also causes trouble.
But you can't use the abuse of something as an argument against it. And the same thing holds true for attributing great powers to an individual. Just because there was a Jim Jones and a Jim Swaggart, are you going to say that you shouldn't believe in anybody? It's because we don't believe in the right people that these charlatans find their way into those positions. If we're open to the idea that somebody alive today is Moshiach, whether it's some Kabbalist in Israel or a Rosh Yeshiva in Lakewood, New Jersey, that would indicate that our belief in Moshiach is alive and healthy and well. Then when Moshiach comes, there'll be no problem.
Irish Zionist:
Shalom Muman. Why do you think the black Hebrews have any rights to Israel and what are your thoughts on them claiming Moses was black. Is there any versus in the Talmud/Torah that dispel these claims?
muman613:
--- Quote from: Irish Zionist on November 28, 2009, 04:40:57 PM ---Shalom Muman. Why do you think the black Hebrews have any rights to Israel and what are your thoughts on them claiming Moses was black. Is there any versus in the Talmud/Torah that dispel these claims?
--- End quote ---
Irish Zionist,
This is a very tender topic indeed. I do not know the definitive answer so I will give you my opinion according to the understanding I have learned from a variety of Rabbis I listen to, and research which I have done. Just this week Tamar Yonah, who has a radio show on Arutz Sheva radio in Israel, just spoke with a scholar who believes that The Ark of the Covenent is in Ethiopia today. I do not fully believe this theory but there is ample evidence of a link from Israel to Ethiopia, both in Moses times and in King Solomons times.
There is Talmudic evidence that there was a Jewish presence in Ethiopia and I just learned that Moses himself was the King of Ethopia for a time.
I recognize the Ethiopian Jew as a Jew if he is true to the custom and ritual of Judaism. From what I have heard about Black Hebrews I am not so sure that they are really Jewish. I think that it is a difficult question because there are some Ethiopian Jews who do make aliyah to Israel and have to learn the laws which Ashkenazi and Sephardic Judaism have instituted via the Schulcan Aruch {code of Jewish law}. Ethiopian Jews also will not have learned as much Talmud as the other ethnicities of Judaism.
I have read some information that Black Hebrews do not keep commandments but just like to daven like Jews. I also read that they are very racist and anti-white. I don't know because the only african-american Jews I know are good people who are davening in Ashkenazi nusach.
References:
http://www.torahtots.com/jewishpress/20060803midrash.htm
--- Quote --- Moshe Rabeinu, King of Ethiopia
The kingdom of Ethiopia is ancient, with a civilization dating back many centuries. More than 3,000 years ago there ruled over this land a young king who was only 27 years old. This king ruled for 40 years and helped make Ethiopia a great power. His Name? Moshe Rabeinu, Moses our teacher.
No, this is not a typographical error. The same Moshe of Biblical fame, the same man who led the Jews from bondage in the land of Egypt and who gave them the Torah at Mount Sinai, was also King of Ethiopia.
How did he get there and when did it happen? Here is the story of Moses, King of Ethiopia.
--- End quote ---
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/811478/jewish/Interpolated-Translation.htm
--- Quote ---15 Pharaoh heard about the incident, for Dathan and Aviram informed on Moses.54 Pharaoh therefore sought to kill Moses. He had him tried, but although Moses had a speech impediment, he miraculously defended himself eloquently. Still, Pharaoh wanted to pronounce him guilty, but God struck him dumb. Pharaoh then tried to mumble his intentions to his ministers, but God made the ministers deaf. Pharaoh motioned to the executioners to kill Moses, but miraculously, the executioner's sword was unable to harm him.55 God made the executioners blind, and thus Moses fled from Pharaoh's presence.56 He fled to Ethiopia, where he joined the army and 9 years later was crowned king. He remained king of Ethiopia for 40 years.
In the year 2418 (while Moses was king of Ethiopia), certain families of the tribe of Ephraim, assuming that the 400 years prophesied in the Covenant between the Parts began as soon as the covenant was made (in the year 2018), concluded that they were over. Mistakenly believing that the time of their redemption had arrived, 30,000 armed men from this tribe left Egypt and set out toward the Land of Israel. They took money with them but no provisions, assuming they would either buy food from the Philistines or conquer their country. But the Philistines defeated them instead, and killed them all except for ten individuals who returned to Egypt to report the events.57
While Moses was in Ethiopia, Miriam married Caleb, son of Yefuneh, of the tribe of Judah, and they had a son whom they named Hur.58
In the year 2434, at the age of 67,59 Moses left Ethiopia and settled in the land of Midian. He thought it was time to get married, so he sat down near a well, following the example of his ancestor Jacob, who found his wife at a well (see Figure 2).
--- End quote ---
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/241,2061383/Who-was-Moses.html
--- Quote ---
--- End quote ---
Christian Zionist:
Shalom Muman!
Is the book of Job the first one in the Tanach? Who wrote it (under divine inspiration)? Why is the name of God given in singular instead of Elohim unlike in other places? Was Job a Jew or a gentile? Some people say that the Job mentioned in Genesis 46:13 (And the sons of Issachar; Tola, and Phuvah, and Job, and Shimron) was the same Job described in the book of Job! Probably this Job from the tribe of Issachar separated from his brothers and settled down in the land of Uz?
Thanks in advance!
CZ
muman613:
--- Quote from: Christian Zionist on November 29, 2009, 10:20:31 PM ---Shalom Muman!
Is the book of Job the first one in the Tanach? Who wrote it (under divine inspiration)? Why is the name of G-d given in singular instead of Hashem unlike in other places? Was Job a Jew or a gentile? Some people say that the Job mentioned in Genesis 46:13 (And the sons of Issachar; Tola, and Phuvah, and Job, and Shimron) was the same Job described in the book of Job! Probably this Job from the tribe of Issachar separated from his brothers and settled down in the land of Uz?
Thanks in advance!
CZ
--- End quote ---
Shalom CZ,
Very interesting question... Job is such an incredible story and one I refer to when I want to discuss the nature of HaSatan, the heavenly prosecutor. Your first question seems a bit humorous {im sorry} to me because everyone knows that Tanach, which is Torah, Naviim, and Ketuvim. The first book of Torah is Beresheit, or Genesis which starts "Before beginning creation Hashem said, "Let there be light"".
When did the story of Job take place? Our sages don't really explain whether he really existed or was only a parable. There are many references to him in Talmud, and I recall the story which places Job as one of the advisors to the Pharoah of Egypt. According to this Midrash, Pharoah had three advisors when he was trying to resolve his 'Jewish problem' and they were named , Yitro, Job, and the wicked prophet Biilam. I have provided links below which discuss these topics more intensely.
Who wrote the book of Iyyov? According to some opinions it was written by Moshe Rabbeinu himself. Was Iyyov a Jew? It is doubtful that he was. According to Jewish belief he was not Jewish but he was a righteous gentile. I will provide some evidence of this in a link below.
I hope this answers some of the questions you have...
Have a Blessed Week!
muman613
References:
http://www.torah.org/learning/yomtov/pesach/5755/vol1no10.html
--- Quote ---The Pasuk that the Hagada cites in reference to "Va'yareinu osanu" is "Hava nischachma lo, " the verse which discusses the advice given to Pharoah about ensalving the Jews. The Gemora in Sotah tells us that Pharaoh had three advisors: Yisro (Jethro) , Bilam and Iyov (Job). Bilam, because he gave the above advice, was punished with death. Iyov, who did not respond to the advice but kept quiet, was punished with suffering. Yisro, who fled in protest of the advice was rewarded by having his descendants serve in the Sanhedrin, the supreme Jewish court. The Gemora where this is brought down was discussing the concept of reward and punishment being Mida K'neged Mida, that the reward or punishment fits the deed. Rav Y. Z. Soloveitchik (aka the Gri"z) was puzzled by this. One can understand why Bilam, who advised persecution, was punished with death. But why was Iyov, who remained silent punished with suffering, and Yisro who fled was rewarded with his descendants serving in the Sanhedrin ?
--- End quote ---
http://www.torah.org/learning/iyov/intro.html
--- Quote ---
Before we begin a conceptual analysis of this holy book it will be helpful to clarify four things:
1. Who wrote it?
2. What is its content?
3. In what form is the material presented?
4. What is the purpose of this book?
Let us consider each these questions:
1. Who wrote it?
From chazal (our Sages) z"l, it is clear that the authorship of this book is attributed to Moshe (Moses) Rabbeinu (our teacher). This point is discussed in the tractate Bava Bathra page14b. The Malbim explained that Moshe wrote it to console the Hebrew nation when they were enslaved and suffering under Egyptian oppression.
2. What is its content?
The book of Job (in Hebrew Iyov) is the story of an exceedingly righteous man who is afflicted with horrific suffering for no apparent reason. While the main character is obviously Iyov, it is not at all clear who this person was. In fact the Talmud ( Bava Bathra page 14b ) contains a long dispute if
Iyov was a Jew, a gentile, or indeed if he at all existed.
According to the latter opinion the book of Job is a parable. It seems that most of our sages did not accept this opinion. But even according to this minority opinion we cannot relegate this work to the realm of empty fiction or myth. We can confidently claim that it is the greatest commentary on human suffering ever written.
It is interesting to note that the Vilna Gaon offers a fascinating interpretation of this Talmudic passage. According to his approach the latter opinion does not dispute the reality of Iyov. Rather it explains the purpose of his existence. He ( Iyov ) was created to be a role model ( a "mashal" in Hebrew ) from whom everyone can learn the appropriate way to accept suffering. Accordingly, we are to take a lesson from Iyov that man has no license to sit in judgment of G-d. He ( G-d ) does not need our moral approval. Although at times some of His ways may seem to be harsh they are always based on absolute justice. Alas, the world of the absolute is often beyond our comprehension.
The tragic suffering of Iyov evokes the strong protest of all fair minded human beings: Should the righteous suffer? This question has to be one of mankind's most elusive mysteries since time immemorial. Several answers are presented and fiercely debated throughout the chapters of the book. They are forwarded by the friends of Iyov: Eliphaz, Beldad, Tzofer, and Elihu.
There is also a curiously veiled character who appears in the story; the Satan. He is the antagonist, the prosecutor, the villain (additional pejorative epithets are optional). His motivations are not clear, but his influence is clearly demonstrated. We will devote special attention to the subject of the Satan in one of our future installments.
There can be no discussion on human suffering without mention of G-d. Indeed, comprehending G-d's role in the world is essential in order to understand this book. His acquiescence to the Satan is simultaneously perplexing and disturbing. The absence of Divine intervention throughout this drama lends strong support to Iyov's contention that G-d neither scrutinizes human behavior nor concerns Himself with the human plight.
3. In what form is the material presented?
The discussions and arguments are presented in the form of a dialogue between Iyov and his friends. Each of these characters presents a unique approach to Iyov's plight. On the one hand Iyov is a believer, a man of intense faith and devout service. However, he cannot accept that a merciful, righteous G-d would consent to the dreadful suffering meted out to him at the hands of the Satan. The foundations of theology are tested in a battle field of what appears to be senseless human suffering. The issues are hotly debated between Iyov and his three friends. Finally Iyov finds balm for his wounds in the wisdom of Elihu ben Barachel.
4. What is the purpose of this book?
Moshe wrote this book as a source of consolement for his brethren who were suffering at the hands of their brutal Egyptian slave masters. They wanted to know why the righteous suffer while the wicked prosper. This was an issue with which Moshe had to struggle with his entire life time. As a young man he saw both the tranquillity of Pharaoh's palace and his brothers subjected to arduous labor and cruel torture. He felt compelled to find out if there was order and justice in the world or if man was just to suffer silently? Indeed, Moshe was so absorbed with this issue that on one momentous occasion when his intimate relationship with G-d could have secured for him whatever his heart desired, Moshe requested only two things:
1. That G-d cause His Divine Presence to dwell only amongst the Jewish nation for eternity.
2. That G-d grant him the wisdom to understand the suffering of the righteous and the prosperity of the wicked.
Our Sages tell us that although Moshe was granted his first request. The second remained concealed from him.
Our Sages reveal to us that ultimately there is an approach which can help us constructively accept our own misfortunes and suffering, however they make it clear that no absolute solution is available. Let us be patient in our investigations and all the more so in our conclusions. Let us have the humility and integrity to recognize and accept our own human limitations. After all, we have not the prophetic powers of Moshe nor the wisdom of Solomon and even they could not uncover the answer. It is crucial to realize that our limitations in understanding does not mean that suffering is without reason or plan. Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato explains in his book Daas Tevunos that part of our reward in the world to come will be that G-d will reveal to us the meaning of every bit of pain and suffering that we experienced in our life times.
--- End quote ---
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