why do torah related posts get hidden or removed and censored????

[decimos]

I recently posted a link to "you tube" about Isaiah v 53,I felt i showed a valid response to the xtain exposition of that verse,I thought it educational and would be of great benefit to see such a verse in its context rather than the evangelical translation of a hebrew verse.However,less than 1 minute of its posting  LISA moves it to the mod section thus denying jews and righteous gentiles an introduction to scripture they normally wouldnt see.I am shocked at the speed of the removal of the post,also it is not for one person to determine what is seen moreover the censorship of a jewish prophet,lest I remind you LISA....HASHEM PUT THE WORDS IN THEIR MOUTHS.I expect a valid response and not one of personal opinion,and are you christian?

[MarZutra]

Shalom Decimos, I believe there is a Halachic problem with postings of this sort for the "teaching" of non-Jews.  If it were given specifically to Jews there would be no problem.  Perhaps it might be seen as Proselytizing which is a no-no for Jews.  Debate is one thing but teaching is something else... 

I don't know but this is my guess... 

[decimos]

its neither both,its a pictorial representation of the words of a prophet nothing more.teaching torah is one thing making people aware of the words of the prophets are another,otherwise king soloman was wrong when he made jerusalem a house for all nation to pray.
King Solomon, who built the first Temple, asked in his dedication prayer, "And may You listen to the prayer of your servant and your people Israel who pray toward this place" (I Kings 8:30), and regarding Hasidic Gentiles he asked G-d, "And also, regarding the foreigner who is not of your people Israel, and who comes from a far-off land because of Your name... and he comes to pray toward this house:

"Listen in the heavens, your dwelling place, and respond to everything the foreigner calls to You for, so that all the peoples of the earth will know Your name and fear You, like your people Israel" (I Kings 8:41-43). b-h.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Maybe if you post it directly in this Torah section there will be less scrutiny of it and more freedom.  The gentiles can choose to tune in here if they like, if they want to see the Jewish point of view, but it is somewhat different than the general forum as a separate section here labelled "Torah" .... so it's less trying to push an interpretation on those people with other religions and more voluntary if they want to look at this kind of stuff they know where to find it... That's my best guess.

Oh, I see now that it was posted here in this section.   I don't know, you will have to ask the mods why ...

[Shamgar]

Second most important reason I am here is to see the Jewish perspective. Although I am a solid Christian, I greatly respect Judaism and interested in everything relative. Can't speak for the other Christians members but this type of article does not offend me. If fact I love to read Muman's postings. He is a smart man.

[Lisa]

I moved it because I just did not understand why you would put up a video showing the killing of Jews by the Nazis.  Also, the writing superimposed on the images was not legible at all.

And finally, we Jews have our way of interpreting our Bible.  The Christians may have a different view of that Isaiah verse.  Now I'm not a Christian.  But from what I understand, there is a verse in Isaiah which they use to show Christ as the messiah.  We Jews obviously have a difference of opinion. 

So with that being said, let me remind you all that the purpose of this forum is not to tell Christians here that their interpretation of that verse is wrong.  There are many other forums where people can discuss the differences between Judaism and Christianity and why Jews don't believe as the Christians do.  This is not one of those places. 

[MarZutra]

I moved it because I just did not understand why you would put up a video showing the killing of Jews by the Nazis.  Also, the writing superimposed on the images was not legible at all.

And finally, we Jews have our way of interpreting our Bible.  The Christians may have a different view of that Isaiah verse.  Now I'm not a Christian.  But from what I understand, there is a verse in Isaiah which they use to show Christ as the messiah.  We Jews obviously have a difference of opinion. 

So with that being said, let me remind you all that the purpose of this forum is not to tell Christians here that their interpretation of that verse is wrong.  There are many other forums where people can discuss the differences between Judaism and Christianity and why Jews don't believe as the Christians do.  This is not one of those places. 

Lisa, I believe you are speaking of Isaiah 7:14.  The Christian re-translation from the Latin says "a virgin shall give birth" as the origional Latin version of was taken from the Hebrew while the later translations stem directly from the Latin translation and not the directly from the Hebrew.  The direct Hebrew of this specific portion says maiden; specifically speaking of a young woman/girl.  Basically the translation stems from "Be-tu-la בתולה" and "Al-mah עלמה".  Virgin and Maiden.  The basic conclusion to the validity of/for the accuracy of the translation one must study Genesis 34 The Rape of Dinah.  Prior to the actual rape of Dinah the Torah calls her a virgin while after the tragic event, Dinah is refered to as a maiden.  By using the logic in this specific example and the actual Hebrew word used one will find that the Torah's and Tenach's linquistics and chosen word usage are identicle.

Two cents from Ol-MarZutra

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I agree with you Dan ben Noah, although I did not know about the business of Jews being murdered, which Lisa says was in the video link....   I did not see the link but in general, Jewish interpretations should be allowed in this section without censorship.

[decimos]

so there is no ambiguity,the link to the you tube video was a point of view expressed by rambam, rashi and many great jewish sages.Lisa,with all due respect the verse in question is isa 53, used by many baptist missionaries and messy jews to convert jews.The video is a juxtapose viv a vis the position of scripture in the video starts and the end of the verse and the video ends at the beginning of the verse.Vindicating jewish scripture and ofc the words of the prophet.I help this helps.

[muman613]

Shalom,

I love JTF and most of the people who are posting on it. It is a place where we can discuss politics and a little bit of religion. I too am sometimes a zealot. Ive been called a zealot, worse than the taliban, and many worse things. But I am more moderate than a zealot. I too have some anger about the christian missionaries and their twisting of scripture. I listen to Rabbi Tovia Singer a lot to learn why their religion has translated Torah so wrongly, and their new writings are full of errors and contradictions. But I understand the need to work together with the other nations. I dont think we are selling out. There are many forums where Jews can talk about scripture and halachic issues. I just found a forum called Hashkafah.com [ http://www.hashkafah.com/forums.html ] which has many interesting Jewish topics and Dvrei Torah.

I dont think we should censor basic Jewish thoughts. The other day I explained the Jewish understanding of the Satan and I originally thought it might be provocative to the non-Jews but it wasnt so much. Sometimes I think they worship that malach, oy gevalt! And I once posted how I discovered mistranslations in the christian psalms {our tehillim}. They were some very serious mistranslations, and I compared to both Chabads and Artscrolls translation, and to my basic understanding of the Hebrew. [ http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=23295.0 ]

My 2 shekels,

muman613

[Raulmarrio2000]

As far as I know, it is not Hallachically forbidden for a Gentile to read the Tanach. What is in fact forbidden to us is to study Jewish Hallachot we may find in it. So it would be permissible to show the correct translation of any verse of the Tanach. (or if there are several possible true translations, to explain them). Neither is it forbidden to explain the Jewish view about the Mashiach since Gentiles are not forbidden to know it. We are forbidden to sudy Torah and Jewish Hallachot not incumbent to Noahides, but the hope of a future Mashiach may concern a Gentile as well.
Perhaps the reason to delete your posts is that, for the sake of peace, the admins prefer to avoid preaching to Gentiles, but not due to an Hallachic banning. It's permmited to encourage Gentiles to be Noahides, it's only forbidden to encourage them to convert to Judaism.

[Ulli]

I moved it because I just did not understand why you would put up a video showing the killing of Jews by the Nazis.  Also, the writing superimposed on the images was not legible at all.

And finally, we Jews have our way of interpreting our Bible.  The Christians may have a different view of that Isaiah verse.  Now I'm not a Christian.  But from what I understand, there is a verse in Isaiah which they use to show Christ as the messiah.  We Jews obviously have a difference of opinion. 

So with that being said, let me remind you all that the purpose of this forum is not to tell Christians here that their interpretation of that verse is wrong.  There are many other forums where people can discuss the differences between Judaism and Christianity and why Jews don't believe as the Christians do.  This is not one of those places. 

Lisa, I believe you are speaking of Isaiah 7:14.  The Christian re-translation from the Latin says "a virgin shall give birth" as the origional Latin version of was taken from the Hebrew while the later translations stem directly from the Latin translation and not the directly from the Hebrew.  The direct Hebrew of this specific portion says maiden; specifically speaking of a young woman/girl.  Basically the translation stems from "Be-tu-la בתולה" and "Al-mah עלמה".  Virgin and Maiden.  The basic conclusion to the validity of/for the accuracy of the translation one must study Genesis 34 The Rape of Dinah.  Prior to the actual rape of Dinah the Torah calls her a virgin while after the tragic event, Dinah is refered to as a maiden.  By using the logic in this specific example and the actual Hebrew word used one will find that the Torah's and Tenach's linquistics and chosen word usage are identicle.

Two cents from Ol-MarZutra

Sorry MarZutra this with the retranslation from Vulgata is not correct. Actually the word virgin is written in the Septuaginta. This is a Jewish translation. The original Hebrew meaning is possible really young woman. But the vulgata is no translation directly from Hebrew but from the Septuaginta.

So the Jewish scholars are imo responsible, not the Christian. 

Althrough I agree on the fact, that people, not only in this case, read things in texts, that are not in there. Ask Jeremiah Wright 

[Raulmarrio2000]

Yes, the Septuagint also has "Virgin" in that verse. I have heard that Ravs claim that the only section of the Septuagint which was translataed by the Sages is the Torah, and that the rest of the Tanach was translated by Christians. Anyway, the Septuagint was recopied and corrected several times since the ancient versions do not fit Greek grammar and have a lot of Hebrew syntax which is inintelligible in Greek. Some say to have found Latin translations of the Septuagint which have the Samaritan Tenth Comandment declaring Gerizim the Chosen Spot. It's a mystery how the Septuagint developed.

[MarZutra]

Brothers and Sisters here...Again the Septuagint-Septuaginta are Latin-Greek translations, of and not the, origional Hebrew.  If one grabs these same books, that have the Hebrew on one page and the English/Latin/Greek/French/Chinese or Arabic on the other one will see עלמה in this exact passage and not בתולה for the reasons stated above, and vice versa re: Gen 34.

I am not going to delve into the blame game if it was the Jews or the Christian/Catholic or the "Jewish" anti-Jew that bastardized the translation for religous, social or political gain back in the 1-3rd century Egypt, Rome, Greece....this is one subject that has been a simple tragedy for some and a blessing for others as it is the crux of one faith and an attack on another... Every anti-semite says that the Jews changed the Bible to suit their international world agenda to undermine Christianity...I believe the Qur'an actually attacks Christianity-Catholocism over this point as well the trinity...but that is Mohammadanism. 

One need only go back to Gen 34.  Dinah, logically, was a virgin prior to her rape and a young woman/maiden after the rape.  This is simply a case of logic and chosen word usage. The Torah has used both as Isaiah.

Further, I have no interest in arguing or belaboring a point with our Christian brethren but explain the Jewishness surrounding this Tanachic passage.  Isaiah 7:14 has nothing to do with predicting the birth of a future Mashiach but that Ahaz' young wife will bear a son, through Prophetic inspiration, will give him the name Immanuel, which means "G-d is with us", thus in effect prophesying that Judah will be saved from the threat of Rezin and Pekah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pekah

I hope this helps the Jews visiting the forum as well the Gentile's understanding from a Jewish perspective...

[decimos]

well put.

[judeanoncapta]

I moved it because I just did not understand why you would put up a video showing the killing of Jews by the Nazis.  Also, the writing superimposed on the images was not legible at all.

And finally, we Jews have our way of interpreting our Bible.  The Christians may have a different view of that Isaiah verse.  Now I'm not a Christian.  But from what I understand, there is a verse in Isaiah which they use to show Christ as the messiah.  We Jews obviously have a difference of opinion. 

So with that being said, let me remind you all that the purpose of this forum is not to tell Christians here that their interpretation of that verse is wrong.  There are many other forums where people can discuss the differences between Judaism and Christianity and why Jews don't believe as the Christians do.  This is not one of those places. 

Lisa, I believe you are speaking of Isaiah 7:14.  The Christian re-translation from the Latin says "a virgin shall give birth" as the origional Latin version of was taken from the Hebrew while the later translations stem directly from the Latin translation and not the directly from the Hebrew.  The direct Hebrew of this specific portion says maiden; specifically speaking of a young woman/girl.  Basically the translation stems from "Be-tu-la בתולה" and "Al-mah עלמה".  Virgin and Maiden.  The basic conclusion to the validity of/for the accuracy of the translation one must study Genesis 34 The Rape of Dinah.  Prior to the actual rape of Dinah the Torah calls her a virgin while after the tragic event, Dinah is refered to as a maiden.  By using the logic in this specific example and the actual Hebrew word used one will find that the Torah's and Tenach's linquistics and chosen word usage are identicle.

Two cents from Ol-MarZutra

Sorry MarZutra this with the retranslation from Vulgata is not correct. Actually the word virgin is written in the Septuaginta. This is a Jewish translation. The original Hebrew meaning is possible really young woman. But the vulgata is no translation directly from Hebrew but from the Septuaginta.

So the Jewish scholars are imo responsible, not the Christian. 

Althrough I agree on the fact, that people, not only in this case, read things in texts, that are not in there. Ask Jeremiah Wright 

Pheasant, Only the first five books of the Bible were translated by the Jews.

The rest of the Septuagint, including of course, Isaiah, originate from the Church.