Author Topic: Persuasion Elements  (Read 2684 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Pescarii

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Persuasion Elements
« on: September 07, 2008, 08:55:51 PM »
This is a thread about the elements that go into persuading people. This is hopefully going to be limited to that topic in the ensuing posts.

People are persuaded by many things. Few of these are explicitly rational. There are often reasons but they are lost deep in the past and are only sometimes applicable to the current situation.

The way that most people operate is based on scripts when a full rational analysis of the situation will take up too much time or effort. This is not always a bad thing. That allows people to spot warning signs of a pattern. It does lead to the danger that people will bypass the study of the situation as they are overconfident from the answer their scripts give them.

A prime example is that of Serbia. People in the West were working off the "Nationalist Dictatorship" script and making assumptions about the situation without further information. Most predictions would have fit in the most famous case, that of Nazi Germany, hence an ideological expectation that there would be a repeat in Jugoslavia.

Despite information from reliable sources denying such occurrences, the Western media and diplomats were gullible enough to accept the continuation of the expected story from highly biased sources (Croats, Muslims, and Albanians). This accounts for the otherwise irrational actions of Western policy makers.

Other things need to be taken into account as well. Most politicians are narcissists. That allows them to be easily manipulated by whomever understands their psychology and can pull the levers of whatever the politician desires of himself. If Clinton wanted to seem heroic and compassionate, he would need to believe that the Serbs were evil so he could vanquish them (thereby proving his own heroism). People generally believe what provides the most emotional comfort unless the task of survival gets in the way.

People confronted with the situation on a day to day basis and whose survival depended on accurate assessments are less likely to lie to themselves. That accounts for the less anti-Serb attitudes of soldiers in Bosnia and Kosovo. Politicians are not there and thus may order whatever their ego needs.

People are attuned to accept whatever fits in their pre-existing framework. That is why people were more willing to accept the bombing of Serbia over Kosovo (supported by propaganda that has filtered through for years) than the interventions in Bosnia.

Another example is the response to Homosexuals getting beaten up in Belgrade. Many Westerners believe that Homosexual "rights" are demanded of democracies and everyone tends to judge people getting beaten up in the street as thuggish behavior. That feeds the impression that Serbs are undemocratic thugs and (given Croatia giving in to demands to permit such things) that Croats are not. That gives the impression even to those who already know the situation in the region.

People judge ideological frameworks based on how they explain the situation. The keep the ones (sometimes multiple, frameworks are not always exclusive) that serve their survival and psychological interests. By fitting into pre-existing expectations of the situation, a party can inadvertently be presenting a sound target for demonization.

An example. I hate rap. I argue the negative qualities of rap music to a man. Unknown to me, that man believes that rap is inherently linked to the black identity and views me as a racist. My statements then that I do not like American students are taken to be confirmation of that racism. It could just as easily fit in the context of someone who knows about the psychological impact of music but that is not what is expected.

For a demonized people, politeness, the absence of the expected markers (hatred, anger, rudeness, lack of respect), and reason forces people to either reevaluate or shift into a more favorable framework.

I argue the legitimacy of the Mugabe government in Zimbabwe with a Zambian man. I point out the shifting nature of territorial claims. He hears that but believes that is not relevant or the symptom of a racist mindset. I argue the existence of cultural differences that made British/Rhodesian rule better than Mugabe's. He thinks I am just another homesick Rhodesian. I point out the irrelevance of skin color to mental operations. He finally understands.

That worked because I was polite, respectful, logical, and could use many different examples to point out the lack of distinctiveness in the case and hence no reason to defend the ego.

Psychology matters in persuading people.
Never underestimate human error. You may erroneously assume a different location but the magnitude is still beyond human comprehension.

Offline Jasmina

  • Moderator
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
Re: Persuasion Elements
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2008, 09:27:15 PM »
  People are judging very easily, Media created my Serbian Nation as a BAD, who did Ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Kosovo,we are bad bad people and Albanian Muslims are victims and they DESERVE Kosovo!  Another thing that Media created about Serbian nation is that Serbs are the most stupid people in the Europe! (they said that this was the outcome of some studies they did on all the European nations) ..I think Media creates false opinions, they cover the mistakes of some leaders by giving some other BREAKING NEWS, hopefully ppl will forget, Media is manipulative, distracts you from the real life!
The whole system works because everyone is not mentally ill on the same day!!!!

Offline Pescarii

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Persuasion Elements
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2008, 09:31:27 PM »
But why do journalists manipulate to the goals they do? Why did they have a vested interest in demonizing Serbs?

It involves more than state policy (the US wanted to stay neutral until Clinton was elected. It involves the desires, perceptions, and processes of the sources and communicators of information.

Why do they lie or misrepresent?
Never underestimate human error. You may erroneously assume a different location but the magnitude is still beyond human comprehension.

Offline Pescarii

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Persuasion Elements
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2008, 09:38:10 PM »
One notable thing is the tendency to confuse Empathy (understanding how others think and feel) and Sympathy (agreement with the feelings of others). They are in actuality very different but unimaginative minds assume they are the same because reevaluations are not wholly condemnatory of their subjects.

This leads to new types of bias that is urged on by the psychological need to feel "compassionate" or "insightful" or whatever the buzzword is of the moment.
Never underestimate human error. You may erroneously assume a different location but the magnitude is still beyond human comprehension.

Offline Jasmina

  • Moderator
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
Re: Persuasion Elements
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2008, 09:40:50 PM »
But why do journalists manipulate to the goals they do? Why did they have a vested interest in demonizing Serbs?

It involves more than state policy (the US wanted to stay neutral until Clinton was elected. It involves the desires, perceptions, and processes of the sources and communicators of information.

Why do they lie or misrepresent?

....in order to cover the actions of their own state, or government!
The whole system works because everyone is not mentally ill on the same day!!!!

Offline Pescarii

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Persuasion Elements
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2008, 09:44:13 PM »
The problem with that is that journalists rarely respond to the desires of the state, they respond to their own ideological and personal desires.

If it is about the government, why is so much of the US media supporting the Jihadists in Iraq?
Never underestimate human error. You may erroneously assume a different location but the magnitude is still beyond human comprehension.

Offline Jasmina

  • Moderator
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 2126
Re: Persuasion Elements
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2008, 09:45:55 PM »
  The media cares only about the money!
The whole system works because everyone is not mentally ill on the same day!!!!

Offline Pescarii

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Persuasion Elements
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2008, 09:52:37 PM »
Money is one element. But accepting the "General Betray Us" ad was at well below market price for the NYT. Money is not the only thing people care about. As hard as it may seem, journalists are people and are as ideological motivated as most others.

Most importantly though, they are idiots. When one script they follow turns out to be dull, they move on to a different one even if the new one is contradictory.
Never underestimate human error. You may erroneously assume a different location but the magnitude is still beyond human comprehension.

Offline george_jtf

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: Persuasion Elements
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2008, 05:21:04 AM »
It is very fortunate that there are those like you who do not believe the average news stations such as CNN (worst of all), ABC, CBS & BBC. Those like you and me prefer the know the facts rather than fiction. So why are media so biased?
That is a lot easier to explain than expected.
Main reason, as Jasmina explained, is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$, no doubt about that whatsoever. Another important reason is that media is the fastest, cheapest and easiest thing to manipulate. Obviously, no government is going to allow something on tv, even in today's belief in so-called free media, to be saying something that goes against the government. Imagine how would most of the Western governments be able to support fascist croatia and fundamentalist muslims of bosnia and kosovo? I strongly doubt that the west would be able to do what they did to serbs.

The only media news that I believe is the one on the internet. Why? Because internet gives all of us more than one side of the story. furthermore, it gives us many sides of the story. Now, that's called free media because it gives the media reader/follower to base his opinion not on one unproven story, but rather on different sources which then he/she can decide which side of the story seems to make most sense and is backed by more facts rather than fiction.

btw, don't forget that bad news sells a lot better than good news. it is so sad that in today's world of democracy, people would rather hear bad than good things...where have we gone wrong???????????????????????