Eugenics, America and the policies of Nazi Germany

[Gruzinit]

Earlier this year I studied the history of the eugenics movement in 20th century America. The biggest misconception regarding Nazi Germany and the Holocaust was that eugenics was a vaccum, instead it was a popular concept that was adapted into our culture and institutions, with scientists, politicians and progressive thinkers alike endorsed as a smoke screen for the true racist beliefs. Indeed, initially memebers of the Nazi Party looked at America's eugenics policies with admiration and basis for their racial hygiene policies.

If you don't believe this. I suggest you read War Against the Weak by Edwin Black, who gives a rather detailed and lengthy history of eugenics. I'm posting this documentary as well, because it explains the history of eugenics far more eloquently than I ever could. If we wish to comprehend the future we embark, we must know the lessons of our past.

[George]

This is true. America practiced eugenics and the Nazis admired this. However Americas Eugenics was much more mild. Eugenics can be a good thing if it's practiced the right way. For example, there is evidence that propensity to commit crime is genetics. Criminals and their offsprings should be sterilized and intelligent and righteous people should always be encouraged to have more children.

[muman613]

This is true. America practiced eugenics and the Nazis admired this. However Americas Eugenics was much more mild. Eugenics can be a good thing if it's practiced the right way. For example, there is evidence that propensity to commit crime is genetics. Criminals and their offsprings should be sterilized and intelligent and righteous people should always be encouraged to have more children.

Bill,

This completely ignores the ability of a human to do Teshuva and change his nature. This is a basic tenet of Judaism and a Jew should know this as we go into Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. I do not subscribe to this eugenics. Actually read my recent posting on how even people with the so-called Fat gene can overcome their predisposition to being obese. In your world I guess the fat should be exterminated...

Oy,

muman613

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,25845.0.html

[George]

Yes I read it and agree with you. Predisposed tendencies can be overcome with discipline and everything is predisposed: intelligence, physical strength, beauty, disease proneness, selfishness, etc. I don't believe evil people have the right to reproduce and think they should be sterilized because there is a very strong correlation to crime and heredity. It goes beyond race too. I remember reading about a criminal who tortured, raped and killed people. His grandson didn't know anything about his grandfather yet he ended up torturing raping and killing people in the same exact way. There are also cases of offsprings of criminals being adopted and raised in a good environment and despite having no knowledge of their biological parents they still end up committing crime. Ernest Hemingway and many of his family members committed suicide because of heredity. Some criminals are severely predisposed and some aren't so genetics tests should be done to determine which criminals are incurably evil to the core and those should be sterilized.

[muman613]

Yes I read it and agree with you. Predisposed tendencies can be overcome with discipline and everything is predisposed: intelligence, physical strength, beauty, disease proneness, selfishness, etc. I don't believe evil people have the right to reproduce and think they should be sterilized because there is a very strong correlation to crime and heredity. It goes beyond race too. I remember reading about a criminal who tortured, raped and killed people. His grandson didn't know anything about his grandfather yet he ended up torturing raping and killing people in the same exact way. There are also cases of offsprings of criminals being adopted and raised in a good environment and despite having no knowledge of their biological parents they still end up committing crime. Ernest Hemingway and many of his family members committed suicide because of heredity. Some criminals are severely predisposed and some aren't so genetics tests should be done to determine which criminals are incurably evil to the core and those should be sterilized.

You are entitled to your opinion. What is true is that the wickedness of the father is passed to the third and fourth generations. What we should have is capital punishment, so that whomever commits such a heinous crime would be unable to reproduce. I do not agree we should do genetic tests and remove those who have particular genetic markers.

muman613

[George]

Well of course they should be executed for murder but if you know they're genetically evil, why not eliminated the genes? You remember the German man who raped and fathered seven of his daughters children? He has produced many children and it's guaranteed that at least a few of his children will become sick rapists. Another problem is that these animals have many children. Welfare recipients and criminals have at least three times more children than intelligent righteous productive people who are overtaxed and can't afford or don't feel secure enough to have their own children. Like I said it goes beyond race too. Their numbers are growing and this can be devastating to the progress and stability of man.

[2honest]

This idea behind Eugenics, that those who don't fit into a certain category are sorted out, is extremely dangerous. The Nazis resorted to this idea but they are not the only ones that would like to revive it.

If you type "Endgame" into the video.google.com search engine you'll find a more than two hour video showing that Eugenics is the dream of those who want to install a one world government/new world order.

[Ulli]

This is true. America practiced eugenics and the Nazis admired this. However Americas Eugenics was much more mild. Eugenics can be a good thing if it's practiced the right way. For example, there is evidence that propensity to commit crime is genetics. Criminals and their offsprings should be sterilized and intelligent and righteous people should always be encouraged to have more children.

Bill,

This completely ignores the ability of a human to do Teshuva and change his nature. This is a basic tenet of Judaism and a Jew should know this as we go into Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. I do not subscribe to this eugenics. Actually read my recent posting on how even people with the so-called Fat gene can overcome their predisposition to being obese. In your world I guess the fat should be exterminated...

Oy,

muman613

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,25845.0.html

I agree with Muman. I have nothing against hanging criminals like in the old times, but I think too that only deeds can lead to a punishment. We should stick uncompremising to this concept.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

This is a very interesting discussion.  I studied eugenics in history at length and yes, it was practiced in many countries to varying degrees.  To fan the flame of this discussion let me pose a question to both of you, Muman and Bill.  First, Muman, do you think parents should do prenatal testing, such as seeing if one or both of the parents have a genetic predisposition for cystic fybrosis or muscular dystrophy or down's syndrome, and deciding whether or not to have children based on the results of such tests?  And Bill, you seem to feel that a person's genes write out their future for them.  Do you think carriers of "violent genes" are necessarily going to commit crimes?  And who would you suggest should be able to make the decisions concerning who is fit to reproduce?

[Lisa]

This is an interesting discussion.  It reminds me of a fiction book I recently read called "Soul," by Tobsha Lerner.  The book is about what happens to people who have a gene for killing without feeling remorse.  It's actually fiction.  The main character is a female genetic researcher, who has this gene, which she inherited from her great grandmother. 

Basically the character came to the conclusion that the genes themselves are meaningless.  They can be "activated" in cases of trauma, or extreme stress. 

But even so, let's say someone does have a "violent" gene.  That doesn't mean they'll resort to a life of crime.  They could become soldiers/Marines, and they wouldn't suffer PTSD, like some soldiers do. 

Just a thought. 

[Gruzinit]

If you type "Endgame" into the video.google.com search engine you'll find a more than two hour video showing that Eugenics is the dream of those who want to install a one world government/new world order.

I think its best we not promote Alex Jones propoganda. I would not give a single penny to that anti-semite/9-11 Truther. It would be better to read Edwin Black's book ( http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Weak-Eugenics-Americas/dp/1568582587/ref=ed_oe_h ) or see Ben Stein's film "Expelled", which does cover aspects of eugenics philosophy and its history.

[2honest]

I think its best we not promote Alex Jones propoganda. I would not give a single penny to that anti-semite/9-11 Truther. It would be better to read Edwin Black's book ( http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Weak-Eugenics-Americas/dp/1568582587/ref=ed_oe_h ) or see Ben Stein's film "Expelled", which does cover aspects of eugenics philosophy and its history.

You're certainly right Gruzinit, several aspects of the film aren't credible. But at least the claim about efforts towards a NWO seems reliable.

Didn't realize that he was an antisemite. 

[briann]

Earlier this year I studied the history of the eugenics movement in 20th century America. The biggest misconception regarding Nazi Germany and the Holocaust was that eugenics was a vaccum, instead it was a popular concept that was adapted into our culture and institutions, with scientists, politicians and progressive thinkers alike endorsed as a smoke screen for the true racist beliefs. Indeed, initially memebers of the Nazi Party looked at America's eugenics policies with admiration and basis for their racial hygiene policies.

If you don't believe this. I suggest you read War Against the Weak by Edwin Black, who gives a rather detailed and lengthy history of eugenics. I'm posting this documentary as well, because it explains the history of eugenics far more eloquently than I ever could. If we wish to comprehend the future we embark, we must know the lessons of our past.

Yes, there were several states in America that allowed for sterilization of criminals... and whatnot.

But please dont compare this to the atrocities that the Nazis did.  They took handicapped children and sent them to the ovens.  There is simply no comparison.

[Gruzinit]

Yes, there were several states in America that allowed for sterilization of criminals... and whatnot.

But please don't compare this to the atrocities that the Nazis did.  They took handicapped children and sent them to the ovens.  There is simply no comparison.

No one can compare what happened in the U.S. to the atrocities of Nazi Germany. But numerous innocents were sterilized against their will or w/o their knowledge, solely because they were poor, uneducated or physical impairments. One of these victims was Carrie Buck, a young woman targeted by the eugenics movement because she was the steretypical portrayal of "white trash".

You can read more on her case here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell

At the same time we cannot be blind as to the source of this movement. The scientific rationales that first concocted on Long Island at the Carnegie Institution's eugenic enterprise at Cold Spring Harbor provided "data" to limit immigration from Eastern and Southern Europe, distributed Nazi racial materials to city schools, allowed Nazi doctors to publish their "research" in established medical journals and magazines. While Hitler (yemach shemo) was in prison during the 1920's he studied the progress of eugenics policies in the U.S. and even included his admiration for it in that g-d forsaken text Mein Kampf.