MUST READ FOR JEWS: E-Book "To Eliminate the Opiate" - Rabbi Marvin S. Antelman

[q_q_]

Infact, there's something interesting on youtube with Ron Paul talking about the CFR. (of course, i'm not for Ron Paul after how Chaim has described him.. But that doesn't invalidate everything he says). That's just an interesting footnote.  A presidential candidate that often mentioned the US constitution, that many patriotic americans quite liked, he is not a loony, and he he has gotten as far as he has, and he talks about it quite candidly. Doesn't prove anything but it's just interesting, I found that clip yesterday.
 

I am not an expert on this stuff like you guys are and it could be a bit out of my league.  I have some catching up to do and need to start reading more books about people writring of the current situation of the world we live in today and the science behind it.  However, I have some knowledge of history and current affairs and think I can intervene a little.  First of all, why would anyone care about Ron Paul.  The man is the most virulent anti-semite in this country.  He is David Duke times 100.  The man's theories are so out of whack, he is one of the major proponents in the accusation saying 9/11 was a conspiracy against the American people by the Mossad and Israel.  

I don't know much about him except that  he is not pro israel.

I don't care about him either.

<snip>
And, did someone mention that one of these conspiracy theory authors was a ufologist??  
Oh man...  please... I don't want people on this site telling me the Government is covering up secrets from Roswell and that X-Files TV show is based on historical events.  

I don't focus on theories But Theoretical question for you.

If a man from a drunk comes out of a mental institution, stumbles on something important, and publicises it, and it's not theory, but hard fact. Then that doesn't invalidate what he publicised. Especially if we can prove that he didn't make it up. He just brought the facts into the public domain. Or, he brought them into the public domain, and some news channels publicised them more.

The person might tell you that aliens came down. But that is not relevant, and doesn't invalidate the facts that they produced.

That is a theoretical case.

Do you accept my point?

Yes or No


 

Where in Torah do we read about space aliens from outerspace coming to Earth?  G-d is the G-d of Earth, not planet Xeon.   Some people do anything they can to grab your attention.  Why not, if it makes them a best seller?

I can think of 2 places where SOME rabbis have commentated that it COULD be a reference to aliens. There are other less supernatural explanations.

One in Genesis - nefilim.

Another in Nach . book of Judges.

a third example is Ezekiel's vision, but no jewish commentator and probably no religious commentator has made such a case!

<snip> Our synagogues (churches too) are electing gay female rabbis as their heads.  Anything associated with true religion is banned and reviled.  Anything countering feminism, black supremacy and homosexuality is also banned.  Of course, people who abused religion in the past brought us to where we are today.  The cycle of chaos of a world headed for destruction.   Did we Jews not lose Yerushalayim when we lost our faith in Hashem?  

they are not "our synagogues" , they are not synagogues.

reform is not our religion.

The ultra orthodox shut all this out as much as possible, and build their own growing society.  If you really can't bare the world, and you want to be religious, then that is an option! 

[Shlomo]

Shalom,

Chamish doesnt think much of JTF and Chaim. I have written him and told him that Chaim is much more important to the movement. BTW, I dont believe this Sabatean thing at all. It is a rehash of just about every conspiracy theory.

muman613

I agree with muman. Chamish is a nut case and the sabatean/illuminati stuff is pure garbage. Tell me you don't believe this stuff. I suppose people are entitled to believe what ever nutty conspiracy stuff they want to believe but JTF does not support this type of fiction.

[q_q_]

<snip>
Chamish is a nut case and the sabatean/illuminati stuff is pure garbage. Tell me you don't believe this stuff. I suppose people are entitled to believe what ever nutty conspiracy stuff they want to believe but JTF does not support this type of fiction.

Chamish is not convincing on the sabbatean/illuminati stuff.. infact he hardly mentions the illuminati anyway.  (maybe you're trying to use him as a scapegoat to criticise rabbi antelman.. I'm sure you're familiar with neither in any depth. There is really no substance to your argument). 

rabbi antelman's work has some great stuff in it, some shocking stuff, but it is a bit random, and I didn't see much evidence for illuminati or powerful sabbatean control..
nobody has really defended that.. You are arguing with nobody and picking weak links, and just using chamish as the target for your attacks.

Let's talk Chamish, since that's the name you mention there.

Chamish's best work is on Rabin. Would you dismiss that as nutty conspiracy stuff?

I doubt that you would write a post serious enough to contend Barry Chamish's case, to contend the evidence that he publicised, that Yigal Amir did not kill rabin, and israeli intelligence did.

I doubt that you are aware of the evidence that he publicised, or that you would present the evidence and show how he twisted it into nutty conspiracy stuff.

I'm sure you can put together a more intelligent factual case than muman, but I doubt that you will.    And if not willing to deal with substance, it's better not to criticise at all, it boils down to name calling.

You say JTF does not support "nutty conspiracy stuff"   "this type of fiction"

You haven't dealt with a word of chamish's evidence.
Just saying he's a nutter. And JTF doesn't support nutty conspiracies.

Rhetoric, and poor rhetoric, because JTF accepts the following conspiracy theory written by an ex webmaster you now know to be a nutter.
 (infact, most of us knew all along that he was a nutter!)

(that doesn't mean everything he writes is nonsense, i'm just using your reasoning against chamish and applying that to you, or to JTF whose position you represent)

http://www.jtf.org/israel/israel.rabin.assassination.htm

This doesn't look like the official story to me.

It includes no evidence, and it claims to know the motives of the people involved.

I suppose you might say that it's not a nutty conspiracy, because the person that wrote it is not a nutter...  Ah, hang on.. He is a nutter. But you didn't know it at the time. Would that explain why it was not nutty when he wrote it, but now perhaps it is nutty?

http://www.jtf.org/israel/israel.rabin.assassination.htm

"
The Shabak plan was to get Amir to think that he would be assassinating Rabin, when in fact, Raviv was supposed to replace the bullets in Amir's pistol with blanks. Then, when Amir would fire the blanks and the attempted assassination would be averted, Rabin would be hailed as a great hero and the "horrible" right-wing, religious Sefardic Jews would be universally reviled.

The day after the attempted assassination, Raviv was to hold a press conference with Shabak
taking credit for preventing the killing by placing blanks in the killer's weapon.

In fact, Rabin's wife, Leah, stated publicly that she was not disturbed when she heard the shots being fired, because she was assured by her Shabak bodyguards that the shots were only blanks.
..

Raviv did indeed replace the bullets in Amir's pistol with blanks. However, Amir checked the bullets in the pistol, discovered that they were blanks, and then replaced the blanks with real bullets again.

So what was supposed to be a staged attempted assassination turned into a real assassination.
"

So, that's the JTF position?

I've seen Chamish provide more evidence than that article has! At the end of the day though, both are stating a conspiracy theory.. And you would concede that the person that wrote it for JTF is a nutter.

You can't argue against conspiracy theories, against nutters writing conspiracy theories, when JTF accepts both of those themselves.

And by the way, when I talk of Chamish on Rabin, i'm not talking about ANY of Chamish's specific theories e.g. what the motives are. Just the facts the he publicised. Facts that you seem to reject, (Of course, facts that you are probably not even aware of anyway, and don't want to be aware of, because of a name hovering near them).

[muman613]

q_q_,

You appear to make less and less sense the more I read your posts. What is it you are arguing about?

I have looked at the Rabin conspiracy things. There may be some questions there but just because of this doesnt mean that everything that Chamish says is true. You seem to be ensnared in this feeling that anyone who doesnt believe Chamish, or thinks he is a nut case {which I do}, is personally against you. This is getting a little bit paranoid, don't you think?

You keep bringing up the Rabin murder issue. So what? There is no proof of anything even in that conspiracy. So many people have differing reasons for this. I just know that there are some questions about the official video {which I watched multiple times} and even those questions can be answered rationally. I will leave it open for others to investigate but still believe that for the most part Chamish is far gone.

Are you personally in some kind of relationship with Chamish? Maybe you really are Chamish? I have never seen someone defend someone so nutty as Chamish as you do. Please answer me this...

muman613

[q_q_]

q_q_,

You appear to make less and less sense the more I read your posts. What is it you are arguing about?

I have looked at the Rabin conspiracy things. There may be some questions there but just because of this doesnt mean that everything that Chamish says is true. You seem to be ensnared in this feeling that anyone who doesnt believe Chamish, or thinks he is a nut case {which I do}, is personally against you. This is getting a little bit paranoid, don't you think?

You keep bringing up the Rabin murder issue. So what? There is no proof of anything even in that conspiracy. So many people have differing reasons for this. I just know that there are some questions about the official video {which I watched multiple times} and even those questions can be answered rationally. I will leave it open for others to investigate but still believe that for the most part Chamish is far gone.

Are you personally in some kind of relationship with Chamish? Maybe you really are Chamish? I have never seen someone defend someone so nutty as Chamish as you do. Please answer me this...

muman613

You know nothing, and you admit it, and that you have no interest in knowing anything about it.
I gave you enough chances to state facts.
You have no logic either. And everything you guess at is always wrong. And you only guess.

So I quoted Shlomo, not you.

[muman613]

q_q_,

You appear to make less and less sense the more I read your posts. What is it you are arguing about?

I have looked at the Rabin conspiracy things. There may be some questions there but just because of this doesnt mean that everything that Chamish says is true. You seem to be ensnared in this feeling that anyone who doesnt believe Chamish, or thinks he is a nut case {which I do}, is personally against you. This is getting a little bit paranoid, don't you think?

You keep bringing up the Rabin murder issue. So what? There is no proof of anything even in that conspiracy. So many people have differing reasons for this. I just know that there are some questions about the official video {which I watched multiple times} and even those questions can be answered rationally. I will leave it open for others to investigate but still believe that for the most part Chamish is far gone.

Are you personally in some kind of relationship with Chamish? Maybe you really are Chamish? I have never seen someone defend someone so nutty as Chamish as you do. Please answer me this...

muman613

You know nothing, and you admit it, and that you have no interest in knowing anything about it.
I gave you enough chances to state facts.
You have no logic either. And everything you guess at is always wrong. And you only guess.

So I quoted Shlomo, not you.

q_q_,

Please reconsider your tone with me...

I have edited this message in the hopes of allowing us to improve our relations. I do not seek any machlokes with you. I simply am looking for some rational discussion with you without making the whole thing personal.

muman613

[q_q_]

q_q_,

Please reconsider your tone with me...

I have edited this message in the hopes of allowing us to improve our relations. I do not seek any machlokes with you. I simply am looking for some rational discussion with you without making the whole thing personal.

muman613

I am not interested in any more discussion with you on this issue of Chamish.

I will write why, so that it is known why.

I've already given you enough chances, and i've gotten out of it all that can be gotten out of it.

I am not repeating the same circus act with you in any more threads.

What I have already succeeded in doing with you, is that any time you call chamish names, or dismiss him as you do, then anybody wanting to know what you think about Chamish, when it was challenged, can view PAST POSTS that you have written (minus the thread you moved) ,and  they can see my responses and they will see your "position" on it, and how well it holds up.

I would have preferred it if you were better, if you dealt with facts, but you never did, and people can see that next time you call chamish names and dismiss everything he says, or you dismiss everything he has brought to public attention.

[muman613]

q_q_,

Honestly I have looked at the facts and I dont believe what he says.

I have given you the benefit of the doubt on the case of the Rabin assasination which there seems to be room to question the official story. I only do this with extreme caution because I do not believe that the story which Chamish claims is the true conspiracy. I dont just arbitrarily say things without thinking them out beforehand. I am very good at backing up my points with quotes and facts. Your portrayal of me is without cause except for your own anger towards me for discounting your friend Chamish.

I am just very disappointed that you now consider me an opponent against which you must constantly bicker with. In another thread you jumped on me for not attributing a post properly. Then I noticed that two other posters did the same thing I did yet you did not complain to them about it. It must be that you take special care to rebuke me when you see me make a mistake. In truth I think this is very special and appreciate your interest. I believe you truly are trying to help me and as a result I try to see you in a better light.

I am open to new ideas and have changed my positions on some issues. I am not simply discounting you and your ideas without much thought. Your method needs some refinement yet you are a force for good.

muman613

[q_q_]

Muman, I am not interested in "changing your position", because it doesn't change based on facts anyway.  It just changes based on other things.

I am not interested in countering every one of your "guesses" either.

You say Chamish is my friend. But I am not more friendly with Chamish than I am with you. So try to think that through, since you suggest that you like thinking. It is purely to counter your sentence. And before you start thinking that i'm your friend, i'll point out that I'm quite distant from you.

I am not playing psychiatrist with you trying to change your perception of me. I don't care if your instincts are to see me as the "devil" himself but for religious reasons you are trying to see me in a good light.

I am not singling you out for rebuke. You should have seen that I criticise lots of people over various issues.  Sometimes I miss a few opportunities, and sometimes I just give up if I see there is no hope for them in that area.  I am not obligated to correct everybody, and I didn't actually see the 2 articles you refer to where you claim that others made the same mistake as you. 

[Shlomo]

Shalom q_q_,

Look, if you believe what he says, then I think no less of you for it. All that really matters is that you're a good yid who loves Hashem and does what he can to make the world better. Everyone has their own opinions and some people here believe the stuff he says. Chaim and I do not agree with Barry and think that he's reaching at straws. To me, it's comparable to the videos on YouTube that say our own government executed 911. Some folks believe in these type of things (some very smart people) and feel like there is enough to substantiate it but I've heard both sides and I don't. Chaim has written some on this subject too and a very small minority of members were banned for too much conspiracy material on the forum.

But I do not want to just argue with you for the sake of arguing and I really don't want to be disrespectful to you and some of the other members I care about so deeply. I had 3 of his books and I understand what your point of view is. I'd rather leave it at that with this topic rather than spend a couple of hours combing through Chamish's material when I need to be working on the new website. I think you know how I feel about the subject I hope you understand I mean nothing towards you personally. I think you are a wonderful member of the forum.

I simply believe it's important to state JTF's position on the material because we wish to distance ourselves from it. That's all.

-Shlomo

[q_q_]

Shalom q_q_,

Look, if you believe what he says,<snip>

it doesn't work like that.

All that really matters is that you're a good yid who loves Hashem and does what he can to make the world better. Everyone has their own opinions and some people here believe the stuff he says. Chaim and I do not agree with Barry and think that he's reaching at straws. To me, it's comparable to the videos on YouTube that say our own government executed 911. Some folks believe in these type of things (some very smart people) and feel like there is enough to substantiate it but I've heard both sides and I don't. Chaim has written some on this subject too and a very small minority of members were banned for too much conspiracy material on the forum.

I don't care about 911 conspiracies.

<snip>I had 3 of his books

No wonder you think he's a nutter. His books are horrendous!

and I understand what your point of view is.

I seriously doubt that.

I'd rather leave it at that with this topic rather than spend a couple of hours combing through Chamish's material when I need to be working on the new website.

so then better not to just say he's a nutter and dismiss him when you don't have the hours to study the -relevant- material that he has produced/publicised.

<snip>

I simply believe it's important to state JTF's position on the material because we wish to distance ourselves from it. That's all.

As I showed, JTF has not distanced itself from a rabin conspiracy theory/"theory".

I am quite sure that "the material" that you have in mind would not be the relevant material to the discussion. Anyhow, as you have said, you are not willing to study the relevant material.   That's the key here, why no intelligent discussion is possible on this issue.  But then don't dismiss everything he says. all documentation that he has revealed.

--
for others(not anybody participating in this thread), the main relevant material is chamish's video "who murdered yitzchak rabin", this has very clear video evidence .. and at one point it has chamish's evidence presented nicely by an american news program.. they interview the surgeon that wrote the medical reports.. he goes bright red when asked to explain a wound that he described in detail, when it wasn't meant to be there in the official story. 
With the video, he can send you the medical reports, so you can follow along.
Natan Gefen's work is all in hebrew but should have the medical reports too, perhaps in the book itself. He presents things much better apparently.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

QQ you admit his books are horrible, I can only imagine the atrocious sourcing he must do, considering what his articles usually look like.  The format is often intolerable.   That style lends itself to appearing as a "nutter" rather than an academic or authority of any kind.   Unfortunately for him.

But come on.  Some of what he says is completely off the wall!   And earlier in the thread you said chamish isn't into illuminati!?   Are you serious?   It's almost all he talks about these days.   Listen to any of his radio appearances on his site, or when he talks to alex jones, he blames illuminati and sabbateans for just about everything.

[q_q_]

QQ you admit his books are horrible, I can only imagine the atrocious sourcing he must do, considering what his articles usually look like.  The format is often intolerable.   That style lends itself to appearing as a "nutter" rather than an academic or authority of any kind.   Unfortunately for him.

But come on.  Some of what he says is completely off the wall!   And earlier in the thread you said chamish isn't into illuminati!?   Are you serious?   It's almost all he talks about these days.   Listen to any of his radio appearances on his site, or when he talks to alex jones, he blames illuminati and sabbateans for just about everything.

I don't care.

My point is not to dismiss what he has brought us on Rabin. The credentials or sanity of the messenger is irrelevant. 

Of course, if you're going to say he is nutty, then be honest and say he is a genius too. He has an ability to understand very complex storylines, very quickly, and to spot things that others don't. A problem is that he enjoys it a bit too much.