Shalom

[Dan Ben Noah]

Shalom

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

heretical notions within Chasidism

  This is a wrong assumption and a scapegoat. Just labeling "Chassidism" gives the false impression that it is only Chassidim, but it is NOT true.

  such as reincarnation

  Again comes from Zohar, and other sources, not originates from Chassidim.

  praying to men

 100% agree, it is wrong. Would not say 100% its Chassidism, but it is true that it can be a problem, and is wrong to do (infact the Zohar and sages speak agains't it, and Rabbis do speak again'st it).

the idea that the Jewish soul is superior to the Gentile soul
 
 That's not even the Zohar, or Chassidim, or Hazal. It is openly written in the Tannach. Sorry to disappoint you, but I didn't write the Tannach- G-d did. (maybe on an individual level maybe, one can claim something, but still as a whole their is no comparison).

the holiness contained in someone's beard

 I dont know much about it, but that comes from the Zohar, not Chassidim. and Halacha also deals with it (and the lenient opinion of shaving with a machine is minority- I mean having almost no hair on the beard.)

the corruption of the Tanya

 I wouldn't know. But I find it kind of ironic that this person rejects Chassidim and then says that their (of of the groups) books is corrupted, maybe trying to be politically correct, or not as controversial.

[q_q_]

Orthodox Rabbi Moshe Ben Chaim hosts an open chat forum for listeners, answering questions on heretical notions within Chasidism, such as reincarnation, praying to men, the idea that the Jewish soul is superior to the Gentile soul, the holiness contained in someone's beard, the corruption of the Tanya, and more.  For more, go to

I am a bit famliar with that site.

That rabbi is against Tanya(the core chassidic mystical text) full stop. 

His position against mysticism is inconsistent.
 
He does give a nod to the RAMBAN's mysticism, but it doesn't bother him because it's kept secret, to be learnt from a wise man to his student, and the RAMBAN says others shouldn't delve.  So it doesn't give him much to criticise. Infact he quotes the RAMBAN to get people to leave it alone.

I haven't seen him pick on a bigger target like the great kabbalist the Arizal.  The Arizal is respected by both Chassidim and Misnagdim.  Or the RAMCHAL.

The most "rejectionist" position I have seen is from an unreliable maimonidean, that rejected every kabbalist, the RAMBAN, Ari, chassidut, e.t.c.  At least that's more consistent than this rabbi you mention.

I have communicated with him over one issue, and he does write clearly and isn't boring to read.  I will listen to that.
I knew an anti missionary that really liked his site.

[q_q_]

you know it's amazing..

you hear shiurim in shul  around mincha, and sometimes they're quite organised and in depth, if only they could be recorded.


Yet people blabber on a microphone, and record it on the internet, and people like it.

This audio was like walking into the middle of a telephone conversation..
How are you? good? How are you? good.. You know guy/phil/moshe was writing about Sharon. Apparently she's a man, I thought she was a woman.. or the other way around,,   or whatever..  And that was the interesting part.

Somewhere he mentions some chabad shul that won't help noachides because they think jews have superior souls.  The R says it's ego that makes them believe that.

This is all pure irrelevance.

Clearly very little thought was put into the recording.

No real serious theological discussion.

His written text is better.  I have heard one of his audios once, it was better than this. 

But I find most audio shiurim online, from any rabbi, to be pretty bad. For some reason it's dominated by outreach groups that do audios rather than serious articles.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Somewhere he mentions some chabad shul that won't help noachides because they think jews have superior souls.  The R says it's ego that makes them believe that.

LOL, that's completely contrary to Chabad.  For anyone without a complete ignorance, that doesn't suffice as any kind of argument.   Granted I haven't listened to the audio.... And probably won't have time..... Especially not after your review, qq!   So thanks.

[q_q_]

Somewhere he mentions some chabad shul that won't help noachides because they think jews have superior souls.  The R says it's ego that makes them believe that.

LOL, that's completely contrary to Chabad.  For anyone without a complete ignorance, that doesn't suffice as any kind of argument.   Granted I haven't listened to the audio.... And probably won't have time..... Especially not after your review, qq!   So thanks.

I must say, I review almost every audio shiur badly..

He does get more into it eventually but I can tell you that up to 7mins in, it is rubbish. 

Of course, as i'm sure you know, the idea of the jewish soul being better than the gentile soul is not just chabad.  I have heard from rabbi dovid gottlieb of ohr (a bostoner chassid), that the idea occurs throughout jewish philosophical thought, and I think also, from rabbi daweed bar hayyim.

RDG explained it as jews have more spiritual potential. 

Of course, this rabbi started his whole discussion on this chabad shul..

I must say.. since noachides are rare , it would not be common practice to have noachides in a shul. Infact, noachides aren't obligated to go to shul, and probably shouldn't be doing things jews do, not so many things anyway.  I have heard ideas that jews are not meant to socialise with non-jews, we are meant to isolate ourselves, and so that would make sense as a reason for not having noachides in a shul. 

I managed to conclude myself, by pure logic, when young, that a convert is one that has been born to the wrong parents / into the wrong body.  Simply because a Jew is somebody with a jewish soul,  you could say -the- sign is, he has been born jewish, or converted.  In a sense, the convert always was jewish.

Similarly, I would reason, why is a Kohein a Kohein.. It must be a spiritual thing and not purely a physical thing.
A Kohein is not a Kohein because of his body. He is a Kohein because of his soul.  There just happens to be an accidental physical component.  And a Kohain is certainly more important, has a greater position, more DOs and DO NOTs, , more spiritual opportunities, and so they have an innate spiritual potential for greater greatness. Moreso than a Levi, and moreso than the rest of Israel.  To say so is not "ego", and certainly not a reason to tell somebody to go away.

There is certainly going to be HUGE bias in the audio. But maybe he has some valid points.

I did discuss something with him once in email, he criticised the concept of G-d is everywhere.   He is logical and doesn't use obscure sources.  Rabbis have faults.. As long as you know where they are  you can sift out the wheat from the chaff.   He does produce written material , not just audio. That's a BIG plus.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Somewhere he mentions some chabad shul that won't help noachides because they think jews have superior souls.  The R says it's ego that makes them believe that.

LOL, that's completely contrary to Chabad.  For anyone without a complete ignorance, that doesn't suffice as any kind of argument.   Granted I haven't listened to the audio.... And probably won't have time..... Especially not after your review, qq!   So thanks.

I must say, I review almost every audio shiur badly..

He does get more into it eventually but I can tell you that up to 7mins in, it is rubbish. 

Of course, as i'm sure you know, the idea of the jewish soul being better than the gentile soul is not just chabad.  I have heard from rabbi dovid gottlieb of ohr (a bostoner chassid), that the idea occurs throughout jewish philosophical thought, and I think also, from rabbi daweed bar hayyim.

RDG explained it as jews have more spiritual potential. 

Right but that wasn't what I objected to.   To say that "Chabad refuses to help noahides because their souls are different" is absurd.  That was my point.   It's not the way Chabad uses the Tanya or the ideas about the souls.   
And the way you write "better" does not really encapsulate the meaning, but I know what you're saying.

[q_q_]

Right but that wasn't what I objected to.   

I know.. and I echoed you in that the shul rejection for that reason was absurd.

To say that "Chabad refuses to help noahides because their souls are different" is absurd.
<snip>

yep.

[Lubab]

Moshe Ben Haim is not an "Orthodox Rabbi". He is a complete ignoramus often dipping into the realm of complete heresy.

[q_q_]

Moshe Ben Haim is not an "Orthodox Rabbi". He is a complete ignoramus often dipping into the realm of complete heresy.

He is not  Conservative or Reform.

I think he calls himself Rabbi and I have no reason to believe he is lying.

If he is a rabbi, and i'm sure he is, then he is an Orthodox one for sure.

I would bet that he accepts ALL of Maimonides 13 principles of faith.

He does pick on Chabad (your group), which I think is inconsistent of him and I suppose are an easier target for him than other kabbalists such as the Arizal, the RAMCHAL, the Vilna Gaon.


He rejects many mystical doctrines such as the one of Tzim Tzum and G-d is everywhere.
Funnily enough, I think the idea of G-d being everywhere may be stronger in Misnaged kabbalistic thought than in Chassidic.  Though most misnagdim are not as into kabbalah.   


I heard a very lucid description of tzim tzum from a misnaged, he said that G-d is everywhere literally.. And constricted his presence so we cannot sense him. The world is his garment.  Lest one think we should pray to objects, we don't pray to objects because  a)it is as when one addresses a person ,if one speaks into his ear, he is not speaking TO his ear. If one speaks towards a person's coat he is not speaking TO the coat. So too, in this material world are like his garments. b)we worship him in the way that he told us, by keeping mitzvot.

The chassidic view from what I understand, is G-d's light is everywhere. (not G-d himself?).

He rejects the whole thing. And that's fine.   I don't see how the chassidic one contradicts the RAMBAM, though it's not supported by it.

He holds firm to the RAMBAM who says in Hilchot Yesodai HaTorah. G-d has no left or right associated with him..

I have heard this idea that G-d is ALL, there is a great description by Gil Locks (beware, you may get dizzy listening to him, but it's somewhat of a rite of passage!).    He does bring a few verses from tenach to try to support it.
This idea does appear to me to contradict the RAMBAM though. This rabbi is convincing in his argument there.

Most misnagdim now, maybe 'cos they are not that into kabbalah, would only say that G-d can be found everywhere, but wouldn't say G-d is everywhere. Same as chassidim I -think- perhaps.  I don't think he counters that idea really.   He would agree G-d can be found everywhere. G-d fills the earth with his glory.. His presence perhaps, the earth, but not G-d himself.


It is not HERESY to reject All kabbalah post talmud. Most think that the RAMBAM did.  Most think that the RAMBAM was -not- a kabbalist.
Fine, he lived in a different era, but still he's not a heretic if he didn't believe it, and it's ridiculous to say that the RAMBAM were he around today, -as we know him- no signs of kabbalah, it's ridiculous to say he would be a heretic.

There are some jews, who hold strongly to him. Not this guy, some people reject more than this guy.  And they would not accept kabbalah either.

There is this group, who are VALID, they are orthodox. Just not the kind of orthodoxy we have grown accustomed to, not the mainstream.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dor_Daim

Rabbi Kapach / Qafah, is well respected, I think even outside his Maimonidean group.. But he rejects the Zohar, and if he rejects  that, you can be sure he rejects chassidut too.

It's not heresy. But it's far from the mainstream, and one wouldn't normally encounter these people in real life!  But they are out there. Somewhere! In some synagogues in israel for example.

http://www.torathmoshe.com/
this guy has some youtube videos available. He is not a typical representative though. he has an interest in theology, and converted.. and doesn't seem to target many videos to jews unfortunately. But he's a smart guy and it looks kosher.

[AsheDina]

  I dont think the "Jew is 'superior' "  BUT I believe that Jewish parents really DO invest a LOT more time in their children, left or right.  It is quite evident. You all grew up Orthodox, in a Crypto home, everything is all about loyalty more than anything. NOBODY openly discusses Judaism OR ANY 'religion' EVER sitting around, OR politics- and NOBODY is allowed to share their faith, politics- NOTHING. NOTHING. I will say this much though, Crypto parents raise their kids VERY STRICT.  So, in this, I was DEF different than many of my friends, VERY different, I stuck out like a sore thumb, and got the heck beat out of me by other kids. It is really evident that my family was just way more strict- but 'superior' no. Humility was taught, ALONG with strength.
Thats all- Hope you all had a nice Shabbat- I did.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

 You all grew up Orthodox,

No I didn't.

[q_q_]

<snip>Crypto parents raise their kids VERY STRICT.  So, in this, I was DEF different than many of my friends, VERY different, I stuck out like a sore thumb, and got the heck beat out of me by other kids. <snip>

i'm really glad that you returned the favour!

[AsheDina]

<snip>Crypto parents raise their kids VERY STRICT.  So, in this, I was DEF different than many of my friends, VERY different, I stuck out like a sore thumb, and got the heck beat out of me by other kids. <snip>

i'm really glad that you returned the favour!

  Well, QQ- SURE I DID  I ate their LUNCHEON!  I was the meanest roughest toughest girl in school, my mom told me: "Paulette, you cant go running to the Principal, and NA NA N A NA NA NA....... you get them ONE BY ONE...." Well, I did. Yep- I SURE DID! HaShem does NOT expect us to be walking mats AT ALL. NO SIR!   
  Well, Kahane_was_right  - ok, well cool, I dont feel so alone.  Lately all that I read is Torah- thats IT.   

[AsheDina]

  All of this 'mysticism' is against G-d in my opinion-totally.  Its like some sort of witch-craft. 

[q_q_]

  All of this 'mysticism' is against G-d in my opinion-totally.  Its like some sort of witch-craft. 

not at all.

it's not practical, like casting spells.

Infact it's absolutely natural, when believing in G-d, and angels, and heaven, that you believe in a spiritual reality, that works in its own ways.

Mysticism just claims knowledge of how some of that works.

The question is, whether it has a foundation or not.   But it's not witchcraft.

Mysticism is really a natural extension of belief in a spiritual reality. 
Nothing sinister.

Dangerous perhaps for the person that believes in it if he is wrong and living completely deluded.

[Lubab]

  All of this 'mysticism' is against G-d in my opinion-totally.  Its like some sort of witch-craft. 

Unfortunately most people do not understand its teachings and it appears that way. In fact it is quite logical, and common-sensical. You just need a good teacher who knows how to "decode" the language of Kabbalah.