Repost from A7 - On the attack on Prof Sternhell

[muman613]

by Prof. Steven Plaut
(IsraelNN.com) The smoke from the pipe bomb had not yet cleared from the courtyard in front of the home of Prof. Zeev Sternhell in Jerusalem when the media launched their most ferocious McCarthyist broadside against the Israeli "Right" since the mid-1990s. The media leaped to the knee-jerk conclusion that the attack on Sternhell, lightly wounded by the bomb, was politically motivated; this because Sternhell had a long track record of expressing radical opinions. These included his denouncing settlers of Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and all non-leftists in Israel, as "fascists," justifying terror attacks on "settlers," and calling for Soviet-style central planning of the Israeli economy and society.

The previous round of massive anti-dissident McCarthyism in Israel followed the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. The leftist media invented the "theory" that Rabin had been killed as a direct result of the anti-Oslo "Right" exercising its freedom of speech and voicing its ideas. The McCarthyist Left in Israel insisted then that anyone who had disagreed with Rabin's Oslo initiative was collectively guilty of his murder. The leftist theory of jurisprudence insisted that every Israeli non-leftist was collectively guilty of murder unless he or she could be proven innocent beyond a reasonable doubt. The episode demonstrated how shallow is the understanding of and commitment to democracy in large swaths of the Israeli political arena.

And a few days ago came the pipe bomb attack on Sternhell. Once again, every Israeli non-leftist is being pronounced by the media as guilty of "terrorism" against Sternhell unless proven innocent beyond a reasonable doubt; and never mind that there is no proof that the bomb was placed by anyone from the Israeli "Right" or even by anyone acting out of political motives. The media in Israel have no need of evidence or proof of anything.

Article after article denounced the "Right" as being (collectively) behind the attack, and numerous pieces, including, notably, those by A. B. Yehoshua and by police czar Avi Dichter, insisted that nameless "settlers" were behind the attack on Sternhell. Lunatic far-leftist professors, ordinarily ignored by most of the Israeli media outside of anti-Zionist Haaretz, the very people who have never heard of an Arab atrocity against Jews they wish to condemn, were carted out by the boxcar to issue proclamations about how the attack on Sternhell was simply a side consequence of Israeli brutality against poor Palestinians and how the attack proves that anyone who disagrees with the far-left is, by definition, a terrorist.

Now, a reasonable person would not rule out automatically the possibility that a lunatic from the fringe of the "Right" or even a "settler" might eventually be found to be involved in the attack. Incidentally, not a single news story or commentary in Haaretz or the rest of the Israeli media referred to the perpetrator(s) of the attack on Sternhell as "activists." But imagine, just suppose that this turns out not to be the case. Would it not be amusing if the police were to uncover evidence that, in fact, Palestinian terrorists had targeted Sternhell with a bomb after his receipt of the Israel Prize turned him ironically into a symbol of the Zionist entity and a trophy target? Moreover, Sternhell had over the years accumulated his fair share of others who hated him, including numerous French anti-Semites, one of whom successfully sued Sternhell for libel in France. So a prudent person would withhold pronouncements concerning who should be presumed to have carried out the attack until some real evidence actually is uncovered.

Meanwhile, anyone who has ever dissented from the dogmas of the far-left and anyone who even expressed criticism of the views of Sternhell, including his statements calling for murder of "settlers," spent the week fielding media injunctions that he step forward to denounce the attack. As if anyone from the non-Left who fails to take the initiative to issue such a declaration should be presumed to support the attack. A prominent professor from the Professors for a Strong Israel organization got such a summons from an Israeli television station and refused to cooperate, viewing the summons as insulting. Isracampus.org.il, the web watchdog that exposes and monitors academic anti-Israel extremism in Israel, was similarly swamped with accusatory injunctions to appear and demands to denounce the attack.

I proposed to the members and leaders of Professors for a Strong Israel - and I hereby suggest to anyone else from the non-Left contemplating what the proper response to all this should be - to adapt the familiar aphorisms of David Ben-Gurion to the challenge. Ben-Gurion regularly made statements such as, "We will fight the White Paper as if there were no Hitler and we will fight Hitler as if there were no White Paper."

Accordingly, my suggestion is that all sensible non-Leftists, when asked about the attack on Sternhell, should reply as follows: We believe that political street violence in Israel must be fought as if there were no plague of leftist academic sedition, and that the plague of leftist academic sedition must be fought as if there were no political street violence in Israel.

Beyond that, several other rather tame observations might be mentioned. These include:

* Sternhell's political outlook and opinions were repugnant before the attack and did not become any less repugnant because of the attack.

* Radical Leftist sedition does not become legitimized because of the attack on Sternhell, no matter who carried it out.

* Critics of the radical Left do not become delegitimized because of the attack on Sternhell, no matter who carried it out.

* Critics of Prof. Sternhell's opinions have as much right to express their criticisms as Sternhell himself has to express his.

As a side note, should it actually turn out that a lunatic from the fringes of the Kahanist movement was involved, I strongly suggest that the denial of freedom of speech to Kahanists should be considered to be the primary cause of the attack. The Kahanists, and only the Kahanists, have been criminalized in Israel, banned, denied freedom of speech, and declared racists and terrorists. Yet, not a single far-Leftist "post-Zionist", nor a single Arab fascist or Stalinist group has been similarly criminalized, and none were officially declared "racists," even when calling for mass murder of Jews or denying the Holocaust.

Forcing fanatics to compete in the marketplace of ideas exposes their ideas to sunshine and fresh air, and ultimately neutralizes them. But the anti-democratic Left and the Israeli political establishment decided arbitrarily to criminalize the Kahanists, banning them as illegal; and people denied freedom of speech sometimes resort to violence. Should it turn out that any were involved, and there is not a shred of evidence that any were, the policy conclusion from such a discovery should be that Kahanism needs to be decriminalized and Kahanists permitted to exercise freedom of speech.


I agree wholeheartedly with the authors assertions.

muman613

[Ulli]

Great article.

Sternhell is a real old school radical Socialist like Rosa Luxemburg. I honestly think, that he became nuts and Socialist during the Holocaust.

Then after he came to Israel, he wanted to help in the creation of a Socialist Israel. As he saw, that his political oppinion and the oppinions of the vast majority of the Israeli citizens developed more and more apart, he became a Peace Now traitor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeev_Sternhell

Perhaps his story is the story of lots of Socialist Muzzy colloboraters in the whole western world. They want to punish the society for not adopting their radical ideas. They are unable to understand, that they refuse to accept their garden of eden in this world.

All about disappointed love .... :-(

[mord]

Sternhell is a real old school radical Socialist like Rosa Luxemburg. I honestly think, that he became nuts and Socialist during the Holocaust

These leftists are traitors whats rosa luxembergs excuse is she the anarchist who proudly told someone in early 1900's how she cut a  official to little pieces on a train

[Ulli]

Sternhell is a real old school radical Socialist like Rosa Luxemburg. I honestly think, that he became nuts and Socialist during the Holocaust

These leftists are traitors whats rosa luxembergs excuse is she the anarchist who proudly told someone in early 1900's how she cut a  official to little pieces on a train

I think this violent behaviour of Rosa Luxemburg has the same source. First they try to create a socialist garden of Eden in this world and when they realize, that the people are not enlightened by their ideas and do not follow them, they want to punish them and loose their conscious.

WE JTFers are in danger to fall one day into the same trap. The only thing that is holding us back is our respective religion.

I think I hate as much as Sternhell and Rosa, but the worst thing that could happen to me, if I would begin to loose hope, is that I don't care about this world and focus only on intern Christian issues, like the most Chassidim did respectively in the Jewish religion.

Sternhell and Rosa are creations of distance to god. This let them become like this.

[mord]

Sternhell is a real old school radical Socialist like Rosa Luxembourg. I honestly think, that he became nuts and Socialist during the Holocaust

These leftists are traitors whats rosa Luxemburg's excuse is she the anarchist who proudly told someone in early 1900's how she cut a  official to little pieces on a train

I think this violent behaviour of Rosa Luxemburg has the same source. First they try to create a socialist garden of Eden in this world and when they realize, that the people are not enlightened by their ideas and do not follow them, they want to punish them and loose their conscious.

WE JTFers are in danger to fall one day into the same trap. The only thing that is holding us back is our respective religion.

I think I hate as much as Sternhell and Rosa, but the worst thing that could happen to me, if I would begin to loose hope, is that I don't care about this world and focus only on intern Christian issues, like the most Chassidim did respectively in the Jewish religion.

Sternhell and Rosa are creations of distance to G-d. This let them become like this.

Yes they have no conscience

[q_q_]

by Prof. Steven Plaut<snip>As a side note, should it actually turn out that a lunatic from the fringes of the Kahanist movement was involved, I strongly suggest that the denial of freedom of speech to Kahanists should be considered to be the primary cause of the attack. The Kahanists, and only the Kahanists, have been criminalized in Israel, banned, denied freedom of speech, and declared racists and terrorists. Yet, not a single far-Leftist "post-Zionist", nor a single Arab fascist or Stalinist group has been similarly criminalized, and none were officially declared "racists," even when calling for mass murder of Jews or denying the Holocaust.

Forcing fanatics to compete in the marketplace of ideas exposes their ideas to sunshine and fresh air, and ultimately neutralizes them. But the anti-democratic Left and the Israeli political establishment decided arbitrarily to criminalize the Kahanists, banning them as illegal; and people denied freedom of speech sometimes resort to violence. Should it turn out that any were involved, and there is not a shred of evidence that any were, the policy conclusion from such a discovery should be that Kahanism needs to be decriminalized and Kahanists permitted to exercise freedom of speech.


I agree wholeheartedly with the authors assertions.

muman613

Where is your post about Chamish by Daniel Pipes, that I responded to?
I can't find the thread anywhere!
The search isn't picking it up, when I type in keywords like Palazzi (whome I mentioned) , since Pipes was very dishonest in his treatment of sheikh palazzi..


Steven Plaut is somebody to beware of..
He does write good articles - against the left.

BUT, he uses the same methods as the left, in opposing free speech.

Interestingly , Muman, . I think I mentioned that Pipes and Plaut conspire together to slander people. You posted that article by Daniel Pipes against Chamish.. Well, here is essentially a copy of it, written by your new friend

In an article in A7
Plaut refers to the neo nazi as barry chamish's editor!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/1
"
Barry Chamish's Editor Arrested in London
....
There were just NO gas chambers, he claims
The Jerusalem Post reports that the Neo-Nazi Holocaust Denier Gerald Frederick Toben, 64, was just arrested in London
"

Alot of what I said about Pipes applies to Plaut. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Plaut is a propagandist and believes in the "civilized debate" method that gets Yesha Jews killed and expelled (G-d forbid) by the leftists who never abide by such rules.    He portrays himself as rightwing, but I'm not buying it. 

[q_q_]

Plaut is a propagandist and believes in the "civilized debate" method that gets Yesha Jews killed and expelled (G-d forbid) by the leftists who never abide by such rules.    He portrays himself as rightwing, but I'm not buying it. 

Worse than that, he tries to shut down some of those he disagrees with.

He does write good articles against the left, but one has to know who one is dealing with.. If posting an article of his it needs a warning. But most people posting his articles don't have a clue about the nature of the beast, and never will.

And all of this. What you've said, and what i've said about Plaut, is true of Pipes too. They are partners in crime. Both trying to get chamish's articles pulled from some jewish sites, both slandering chamish(suggesting he is a holocaust denier), at the same time. Both writing in the opinion section of A7 . Both wanting a palestinian state really. Both writing elegant critiques of the left..

The only thing good that they do is writing articles against the left.. But  most people lack the "intellectual depth" to understand the nature of these characters. They just read, smile, and clap like idiots. 

[muman613]

Plaut is a propagandist and believes in the "civilized debate" method that gets Yesha Jews killed and expelled (G-d forbid) by the leftists who never abide by such rules.    He portrays himself as rightwing, but I'm not buying it. 

Worse than that, he tries to shut down some of those he disagrees with.

He does write good articles against the left, but one has to know who one is dealing with.. If posting an article of his it needs a warning. But most people posting his articles don't have a clue about the nature of the beast, and never will.

And all of this. What you've said, and what i've said about Plaut, is true of Pipes too. They are partners in crime. Both trying to get chamish's articles pulled from some jewish sites, both slandering chamish(suggesting he is a holocaust denier), at the same time. Both writing in the opinion section of A7 . Both wanting a palestinian state really. Both writing elegant critiques of the left..

The only thing good that they do is writing articles against the left.. But  most people lack the "intellectual depth" to understand the nature of these characters. They just read, smile, and clap like idiots. 

q_q_,

I am very perplexed by your response. Do you, or do you not, agree with the facts which were discussed in the article? You seem to always want to attack the source of the information instead of debate the merits of what is discussed.

I moved the Chamish thread to the admin section because I really got upset at you and posted some things I might regret. I really strongly disagree with you about Chamish. He is completely on my wingnut moonbat nutty list and nothing you have said proves otherwise. You attacked me and accused me of slander which is a very serious accusation, and I dont take it lightly.

If you would like to resume the Chamish thread I can move it back into the general discussion area. I really think Chamish is a self-serving non-religious schlemiel who aligns with the enemies of Jews if they pay him. I have seen and heard his interviews with people who are so out there that it makes him completely unbelievable.

q_q_, I will ask you if you think it is ok to judge people by whom they associate with? I hold Obama accountable for his relationship with Rev Wrigth who said "G-d damn america" and "Americans invented aids" and "The chickens came home to roost". I hold Obama accountable because we are judged by whom we associate with. Chamish has associated with some very shady neo-nazis and thusly I will judge him.

I do believe that this article exposes the fact that the Right is not responsible for the act of the one who attacked Sternhell. I would think that this position would be very supported by the Kahanists here at JTF. I sometimes wonder why you always begin by attacking the messenger instead of addressing the message.

muman613

[q_q_]

Plaut is a propagandist and believes in the "civilized debate" method that gets Yesha Jews killed and expelled (G-d forbid) by the leftists who never abide by such rules.    He portrays himself as rightwing, but I'm not buying it. 

Worse than that, he tries to shut down some of those he disagrees with.

He does write good articles against the left, but one has to know who one is dealing with.. If posting an article of his it needs a warning. But most people posting his articles don't have a clue about the nature of the beast, and never will.

And all of this. What you've said, and what i've said about Plaut, is true of Pipes too. They are partners in crime. Both trying to get chamish's articles pulled from some jewish sites, both slandering chamish(suggesting he is a holocaust denier), at the same time. Both writing in the opinion section of A7 . Both wanting a palestinian state really. Both writing elegant critiques of the left..

The only thing good that they do is writing articles against the left.. But  most people lack the "intellectual depth" to understand the nature of these characters. They just read, smile, and clap like idiots. 

q_q_,

I am very perplexed by your response. Do you, or do you not, agree with the facts which were discussed in the article? You seem to always want to attack the source of the information instead of debate the merits of what is discussed.

I said his criticism of the left is good.

I couldn't give a darn about what the left are jabbering about at the moment. But i'm sure Plaut's criticism is good. I'm not talking about that.

I am wondering where the old thread was. WHere you posted an article about chamish by Pipes, and I responded.
(I see you respond to this later in the thread)


And I am pointing out the issue with Plaut and Pipes, incase you don't know.

And I am not using that to invalidate everything he writes.

It is YOU that use character assassination to invalidate everything somebody writes. (case of chamish), and you're only parotting Pipes there anyway. And now you're reading Plaut, which touches slightly on rabin.   "strange coincidence".

I moved the Chamish thread to the admin section because I really got upset at you and posted some things I might regret. I really strongly disagree with you about Chamish. He is completely on my wingnut moonbat nutty list and nothing you have said proves otherwise. You attacked me and accused me of slander which is a very serious accusation, and I dont take it lightly.

If you would like to resume the Chamish thread I can move it back into the general discussion area. I really think Chamish is a self-serving non-religious schlemiel who aligns with the enemies of Jews if they pay him. I have seen and heard his interviews with people who are so out there that it makes him completely unbelievable.

well if you want you can edit your post and remove where you slandered chamish.

and I can edit mine and remove the accusation.. 

and then once you're convinced it meets your view of JTF standards, you can move it back

But there is valuable information  that I posted there about Daniel Pipes.  And it applies to Plaut too.

And your attack on Chamish could have been written by any robot, and thus it's good for people to find a response even though you may want to remove your name from the slander aganst him. 

q_q_, I will ask you if you think it is ok to judge people by whom they associate with? I hold Obama accountable for his relationship with Rev Wrigth who said "G-d damn america" and "Americans invented aids" and "The chickens came home to roost". I hold Obama accountable because we are judged by whom we associate with. Chamish has associated with some very shady neo-nazis and thusly I will judge him.

It depends what you mean by "Associate with".

I can see you're trying to compare it to where you judged chamish for "associating" with neo nazis.

this is empty rhetoric, the way you use the term..

Chamish, AS I WROTE , was discussing with his readers, whether he should go to that holocaust denial conference. And if he did go, he was going billed as a Holocaust Believer.  He planned to put them right..
And to sell his material of course.  He does that. As I wrote in that thread. You can accuse him of advertising his material to anybody and everybody, whoever will read it, he wants to get the message out, and sell his books.
That's a far cry from the alsnder that Pipes has written against him..  And the same slander that Plaut has written against him.

And it doesn't invalidate his arguments.
 
Chamish had not even met the holocaust denier conference head, and he doesn't agree with him.
That "association" is Not Comparable to Obama's pastor for 20 years, Jeremiah Wright.

So don't mix up judging by association.  You just don't analyse things at any level.. It's so obvious

So rabbi kahane has an association with the mafia (He mentioned this on the radio in answer to a question).. You have to ask For What. What does the association mean. What was the relationship, and what wasn't it.  You don't think about any of this, mental cobwebs and/or emotions getting in the way..
 

I do believe that this article exposes the fact that the Right is not responsible for the act of the one who attacked Sternhell. I would think that this position would be very supported by the Kahanists here at JTF. I sometimes wonder why you always begin by attacking the messenger instead of addressing the message.
muman613

There is a difference here.

I am writing something against the messenger - Plaut - because people should be warned.

I said NOTHING about his message.

You on the other hand attack the messenger - Chamish - (and as I showed, I could have done a better job anyway) and you think that invalidates his whole argument.

You are all emotional and unable to deal with facts and logic in this issue. Or, you're just not able to analyse things at a reasonable level.  Or some mixture.

[muman613]

You are all emotional and unable to deal with facts and logic in this issue. Or, you're just not able to analyse things at a reasonable level.  Or some mixture.

q_q_,

You seem to be the emotional one because you constantly are trying to demean me. First by accusing me of slander and now of being 'all emotional and unable to deal with facts'.

How are you to be able to judge my ability to deal with facts and logic in this issue? You, q_q_, really are the master of all knowledge and must I bow to your superior arguing tactics? Obviously I jest because I dont see a speck of logic or facts in your presentation.

You just dont like what Pipes and Plaut said about Chamish, so now you are on the war path against them. Unfortunately, for you, most peoples opinion of Chamish is that he is 'out-there' on much of his theories. Do a google search for Mr. Chamish and you will find much information which indicates he is not respected for his opinions.

So what you must do, as a Chamish believer, is discredit me through your name calling and demeaning tone. This is not surprising because this tactic is used by many on the left. I am one who gives people the benefit of the doubt, till they prove otherwise. You are not convincing me, nor do I think you are convincing anyone else that Mr Chamish is to be believed.

muman613

PS: Do you believe that America perpetrated 9/11? http://www.rense.com/general14/attass.htm {Warning link to neo-nazi site Rense.com where Chamish is published}

[Manch]

His actual last name is Stern hell?  This is not a pseudonym? Very appropriate! He'll be there soon enough! 

[Ulli]

His actual last name is Stern hell?  This is not a pseudonym? Very appropriate! He'll be there soon enough! 

No it is German. His name means "bright like a star"

[mord]

His actual last name is Stern hell?  This is not a pseudonym? Very appropriate! He'll be there soon enough! 

No it is German. His name means "bright like a star"

He should change it to 'hot as hell' or maybe shwarzTeufel

[Ulli]

His actual last name is Stern hell?  This is not a pseudonym? Very appropriate! He'll be there soon enough! 

No it is German. His name means "bright like a star"

He should change it to 'hot as hell' or maybe shwarzTeufel

You mean Schwarz/Dunkel/Finster like a Teufel (Deibel) [devil]

I think this name would be "Finsterteufel", "Schwarzdeibel" or "Finsterdeibel" but perhaps "Schwarzteufel" is possible too.

I have checked the names with this genealogy-tool: http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/v3/Default.aspx?lang=nodetect

But there are no hits. But for Finstermann or Dunkelmann are a lot. There are thousands of peoples who have the name "Teufel" and a few have even the name "Dämon" deamon 

[mord]

His actual last name is Stern hell?  This is not a pseudonym? Very appropriate! He'll be there soon enough! 

No it is German. His name means "bright like a star"

He should change it to 'hot as hell' or maybe shwarzTeufel

You mean Schwarz/Dunkel/Finster like a Teufel (Deibel) [devil]

I think this name would be "Finsterteufel", "http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,26931.0.html" or "Finsterdeibel" but perhaps "Schwarzteufel" is possible too.

I have checked the names with this genealogy-tool: http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/v3/Default.aspx?lang=nodetect

But there are no hits. But for Finstermann or Dunkelmann are a lot. There are thousands of peoples who have the name "Teufel" and a few have even the name "Dämon" deamon 

this sounds good     Dunkelmann      

[Ulli]

Dunkelmann means people that are doing at night evil and secret things.

There is a wikipedia issue about Dunkelmann

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelmann

[mord]

Dunkelmann means people that are doing at night evil and secret things.

There is a wikipedia issue about Dunkelmann

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelmann

yes that excellent from Faust

[Ulli]

Dunkelmann means people that are doing at night evil and secret things.

There is a wikipedia issue about Dunkelmann

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkelmann

yes that excellent from Faust

Yes 

[Maccabi]

Perhaps Roni did it?

Do you think he could make a pipe bomb?

I wouldn't overlook the possibility.

[Ulli]

Perhaps Roni did it?

Do you think he could make a pipe bomb?

I wouldn't overlook the possibility.

You should ask Chaim on this weeks ask-jtf.

[q_q_]

You are all emotional and unable to deal with facts and logic in this issue. Or, you're just not able to analyse things at a reasonable level.  Or some mixture.

q_q_,

You seem to be the emotional one because you constantly are trying to demean me. First by accusing me of slander and now of being 'all emotional and unable to deal with facts'.

How are you to be able to judge my ability to deal with facts and logic in this issue? You, q_q_, really are the master of all knowledge and must I bow to your superior arguing tactics? Obviously I jest because I dont see a speck of logic or facts in your presentation.

You just dont like what Pipes and Plaut said about Chamish, so now you are on the war path against them. Unfortunately, for you, most peoples opinion of Chamish is that he is 'out-there' on much of his theories. Do a google search for Mr. Chamish and you will find much information which indicates he is not respected for his opinions.

So what you must do, as a Chamish believer, is discredit me through your name calling and demeaning tone. This is not surprising because this tactic is used by many on the left. I am one who gives people the benefit of the doubt, till they prove otherwise. You are not convincing me, nor do I think you are convincing anyone else that Mr Chamish is to be believed.

muman613

PS: Do you believe that America perpetrated 9/11? http://www.rense.com/general14/attass.htm {Warning link to neo-nazi site Rense.com where Chamish is published}

The 1 thing you ask me to respond to there is in your "ps"

I didn't call myself a "Chamish believer" or a  Chamish disbeliever.

The answer is No.  And I don't believe random things that chamish writes.

I told you in a previous thread, that the evidence he publicised on rabin, is not dependent on him.  You don't have to trust him.   Trust Natan Gefen instead if you want. Trust xrays and medical reports and documentation of court trials, and shamgar commission report.  You obviously cannot examine evidence for yourself, so you need a gadol to rely on.  Chamish is not a gadol to anybody. You think i'm like you. Unable to examine facts for myself, and thus if I say Chamish is right on something, I must be a chamish believer that believes everything he claims.    I repeat. The evidence he publicised on rabin is not dependent on him.   Neither is the story on Avishai Raviv - who you had never heard of.  If you were able to get the jist on chamish you'd have known about Avishai Raviv.  (i'm sure you still don't get it about avishai raviv, though i'm sure i explained it in a previous thread you were in, and you responded shocked as if you understnnd the gravity of the situation with him.  But I do doubt that you got it)
 

I am not "on the warpath" against plaut or pipes.  I actually said where Plaut is good.. (as well as where he is bad).

All you write is empty rhetoric.  No facts.

I dealt with your stupid arguments..

You mention
"I hold Obama accountable because we are judged by whom we associate with. Chamish has associated with some very shady neo-nazis and thusly I will judge him."

So I went to some effort in analysing that.. and you ran away.

Just as you run away from my criticism of Plaut. (which as I said, implies nothing other than criticism of Plaut)

Why bother bringing up these obviously ill thought out empty arguments.

[muman613]

q_q_,

As I said before, you are entitled to believe whatever you want. In my opinion you are a bit too myopic and missing the point which I have been making. You really believe his Rabin assassination theory, I dont buy it. I have an Israeli friend who says this whole Barry Chamish nonsense is childish and fantastic. You are entitled to your fantasies. Who am I to talk about reality?

There is no use in continuing this controversy as I will continue to cast dispersions on these theories and you will continue to believe them. You use accidents and drunk driving convictions as if there is some hidden hand which controls these events. I know in my life I have seen car accidents and drunk drivers and I dont think that the cabal is responsible. In my opinion one must ask oneself who is the one who makes the story. In this case I dont believe most of what Chamish says. As a result I dont put much trust in anything he says. I dont believe in UFOs and he wrote about UFOs. He wrote about aliens controlling Israel, and I think thats nuts. He wrote that the USA is behind 9/11 and that is wingnut wacko. Oh, he wrote about Rabins assassination and someone on JTF really believes that... Hmmm...

I am not debating the merits or demerits of the Rabin theory. I dont have the facts except the Israelis I know dont give much credence to this 'theory'. I dont know if the Kahanists put much belief in this theory because I am new to this ideology. I asked others for their input on this issue and nobody has offered me any. But anyone who says that America was behind 9/11 is immediately on my crepe list. This is my primary reason for casting light on his darker theories.

Let us go on our ways because this is not going anywhere. If you are on a mission to prove that Chamish theories are right, you are entitled to post anything pro-Chamish.

I wish you a good week and may you be sealed in the book of life.

muman613

Barry Chamish interview:
"THERE WAS THIS UFO WAVE AND ASSOCIATED WITH IT WERE GIANT SIGHTINGS....UNFORTUNATELY, I HAVEN'T REACHED THE RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY AND I SHOULD...THAT WAS THE BIG CRIME. AND THAT'S WHAT THEY DID IN ISRAEL ALL OVER AGAIN IN '93, THEY HAD THEIR WAY WITH JEWISH WOMEN. AND AS STRANGE AS IT SOUNDS, LOOK AT THIS BOOK "RETURN OF THE GIANTS".I USUALLY DON'T TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE DO YOU KNOW THAT MY ENEMIES JUST DESTROY ME...NOW I TAKE THE POINT OF VIEW THAT THEY'RE NOT FROM OUTERSPACE. MORE AND MORE I AM BEGINNING TO SEE THAT THESE ARE SOME SORT OF INTERDIMENSIONAL DEMONS OF SOME KIND."

http://www.chabad.info/index_old.php?&url=article_en&id=10143

http://www.greatdreams.com/chamish.htm

http://www.rense.com/general28/brit.htm

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/chamishgiants.html

Very good info on Chamish 'stories'
http://www.britam.org/Questions/QuesChamish.html

[q_q_]

q_q_,

As I said before, you are entitled to believe whatever you want. In my opinion you are a bit too myopic and missing the point which I have been making. You really believe his Rabin assassination theory, I dont buy it. I have an Israeli friend who says this whole Barry Chamish nonsense is childish and fantastic. You are entitled to your fantasies. Who am I to talk about reality?

I have an israeli friend that was skeptical, then I showed him the evidence and he was convinced, and horrified.
(and that's absolutely true).. 

See, I can answer your pointless arguments with equally pointless counters. Your "arguments" have no substance.

Don't bother.  You are wasting everybodys' time.

I am only responding because you write this rubbish publically and people that don't know may be misled.

There is no use in continuing this controversy as I will continue to cast dispersions

One casts aspersions, deary.

Dispersion is a concept in physics.

This is the second time i've corrected you on that very point.

I will continue to cast dispersions on these theories and you will continue to believe them. You use accidents and drunk driving convictions as if there is some hidden hand which controls these events.

QUOTE ME

and if I did say anything of a driving accident or drunk driving, I guarantee it was not as a -proof- of any conspiracy, and nothing to do with rabin.  But quote me.

I know in my life I have seen car accidents and drunk drivers and I dont think that the cabal is responsible. In my opinion one must ask oneself who is the one who makes the story. In this case I dont believe most of what Chamish says. As a result I dont put much trust in anything he says. I dont believe in UFOs and he wrote about UFOs. We wrote about aliens controlling Israel, and I think thats nuts. He wrote that the USA is behind 9/11 and that is wingnut wacko. Oh, he wrote about Rabins assassination and someone on JTF really believes that... Hmmm...

I am not convinced by most of what he writes either. I don't look into it, either.

But I told you already that the evidence about rabin is INDEPENDENT of him.

It doesn't go in, does it? does it? does it? DOES IT?

I am not debating the merits or demerits of the Rabin theory. I dont have the facts except the Israelis I know dont give much credence to this 'theory'. I dont know if the Kahanists put much belief in this theory because I am new to this ideology. I asked others for their input on this issue and nobody has offered me any. But anyone who says that America was behind 9/11 is immediately on my crepe list. This is my primary reason for casting light on his darker theories.

yes, i've noticed your methodology.

but as I said, it's not purely "his theory".   The core of it is something you can prove from facts.
Facts that you don't know.

But we are talking about evidence independent of anything he claims.
(and for  your mind, i'll tell you, it's evidence produced by others too)

So your criticism of him is irrelevant to the case.

Let us go on our ways because this is not going anywhere. If you are on a mission to prove that Chamish theories are right, you are entitled to post anything pro-Chamish.

this isn't going anywhere because your mind is "effectively" incapable of taking it anywhere.

my position on chamish states good points and bad points about him..  Not just "anything pro"
that kind of a position is WAY too difficult for you to grasp.
and the other thing that is WAY beyond you, is that this has nothing to do with the correctness of the evidence he brought out - by him and natan gefen - regarding rabin.

So now you can look for bad things to say about natan gefen and pretend that this invalidates the medical records he brought out. (medical records that made the Dr  that signed it go bright red and speechless when interviewed about them!)

I wish you a good week and may you be sealed in the book of life.

muman613
 

you too, and I wish you more knowledge,

Maybe one day you'll be able to have a discussion with me on this based on facts, but I don't think so.

Better that you JUST  increase your knowledge in judaism, and stop commenting on subjects that you have no interest in looking into. Subjects that are effectively way beyond you.

[muman613]

q_q_,

You seem to see conspiracies where there are none. The bottom line is that Chamish is wrong to associate with those who are our enemies. I have found posting after posting on various anti-semitic sites which support Chamishs so-called theories. I will continue to place more confidence in things written by the likes of Plaut and Pipes before I would place confidence in anything Chamish writes.

UFOs and 9/11 conspiracy theories are simply a device this man uses to bilk people out of their money. If you really want to support him I will provide a link where you can donate to his cause.

You seem to think that by using a lot of big words that it somehow makes you seem more informed. But you are no more informed than any Joe off the street. You believe the things you want to believe. Where you an actual witness yourself? Do you believe everything that someone with an agenda tells you? You believe that you see something in the conspiracy tapes. People actually believe that the Trade Center was taken down by explosives and not by the heat from the fire caused by the impact of the jet plane. I will not argue with you on this.

You should watch it with the personal attacks. You do not accomplish your goal as you will not be able to intimidate me. I have stood up to much worse adversaries than yourself. It is simply that my humility forces me to seek peace and understanding between Jews {Ahavas Yisroel} before making a judgment. If you think that by pointing out spelling errors that it proves your point then you are making an error. I have been known to have very good spelling and grammar skills and I am sure that you have made errors also.

I am sure you are one who supported the ideas of *kin* {read backward} who seemed to parrot the ideas of Chamish {was *KIN* really Barry Chamish?}. Both Chamish and *kin* are atrocious at spelling and grammar but that doesn't seem to bother you.

I will allow this to be the final word on this thread about this issue...

muman613

Dont say I didnt do Chamish a favor:

http://www.thebarrychamishwebsite.com/donate.htm