Author Topic: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith  (Read 5270 times)

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Offline q_q_

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2008, 11:12:59 AM »
<snip>
I've met many Orthodox Rabbis that see Rabbi Kahane's views as correct. Sadly, VERY few would openly back him in the most important time when it was needed, similarly how they tend to "sit idly by" today.  The Heredim are of a different cloth, aforementioned.
<snip>

It's easy to say "Kahane was right"

and many rabbis agree with Rabbi Kahane

So much of what rabbi kahane said is obvious to any sane person.

But rabbi kahane never focussed on convincing people of his halachic positions.. Convincing those that would have opposed him. The charedim.

So when one says they agree with this or that of what rabbi kahane said.. Then it is not what i'm talking about.

He said many great things.. so clearly, and should not have been opposed.  There was a quote in the JC, where he said - as a statement against democracy in israel.   "Torah is truth. How can one vote on truth?"   This was in an article written by one of his detractors. (The JC, as rabbi kahane wrote, slandered him and refused to print his response)

However, when it gets to some of the meat of his torah positions.  I have not met one rabbi   that would say that the mosque on the temple mount is a chillul hashem that has to be removed. A negative thing, yes. But not a chillul hashem.
The biblical definition of the term or to put it another way, the linguistic definition.. is not halachic. And that's according to that askmoses site too, that shlomo posted.

Offline FULL METAL JACKET

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2008, 12:08:46 PM »
The rabbi has a point. All one needs to do is bring up the Mizrahi jews. When they first came to Israel they were treated horrendously. Some that were doctors and lawyers in their native countries were forced to become janitors instead. So many untold discrimination. Not too long ago a Yemenite family had to move to nyc because there was so much discrimination.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 01:02:56 PM by FULL METAL JACKET »
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Offline q_q_

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2008, 12:40:28 PM »
The rabbi has a point. All one needs to do is bring up the Mizrahi jews. When they first came to Israel they were treated horrendously. Some that were doctors and lawyers in their native countries were forced to become janitors instead. So many untold discrimination. Not too long ago a Yemenite family had to move to nyc because their was so much discrimination.

And like you, many rabbis or sane jews, would say, kahane was right.

but they're not aware of the meat of his torah arguments..

maybe some religious jews at YU when he spoke there got to argue it out with him but he never focussed on presenting it.

I think it would only have been unravelled in a debate format..

He debated seculars alot, but not orthodox rabbis.  True, he said he'd debate any of them.. and they didn't reply. But at the end of the day he didn't debate them.  (and also, he was smart enough that if he wanted to debate them he could have provoked one!)

There is one I might get, advetrised on the dog trainer's website(i'll say no more of that wicked person, but I'll PM anybody interested).. a debate with a rabbi wolf . I don't have it.  Just I saw it listed on the site and he's selling it.
And I read online of a (an orthodox) rabbi debating him and losing, the article was written by that rabbi and he sounded like a sore loser as a comment pointed out.  The only recorded one would be that rabbi wolf.  compare that to all his other talks.. all secular really, with religious bits thrown in to secular audiences. There is a talk to kids, buit again, not to a rabbi, not a debate. There's no question that it's missing.

rabbi kahane's whole ideology was based in the torah, rooted in it.. And he believed that.. and he didn't really make the case.  Maybe he did in Ohr HaRayon, I hope to get it some time. But it's a longshot.

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2008, 01:05:43 PM »
Both my Rabbis believe that the Mosque is an insult to HaShem and should be torn down and shipped to Arabia.  In fact my Rabbi, who feels the Arabs should be expelled and all mosques torn down... 

Now I've never heard him, nor asked him specifically if he believes it to be Chillul HaShem.  I am guessing he would say it is...
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2008, 08:40:38 PM »
Both my Rabbis believe that the Mosque is an insult to HaShem and should be torn down and shipped to Arabia.  In fact my Rabbi, who feels the Arabs should be expelled and all mosques torn down... 

Now I've never heard him, nor asked him specifically if he believes it to be Chillul HaShem.  I am guessing he would say it is...

Please ask him and report back..

Argue the reverse and see how his argument holds up.

If he says "No" it's not a chillul hashem, then i'm sure you'll argue  with that.. Do report back.


If he says "Yes, it is a chillul hashem", then put this to him..

Chillul hashem is a sin, it's something jews do, not gentiles.

A sin so serious that it is better to die than to commit it.

(those are just quick points to any rabbi you argue it out with).

note- I must say , outside of the evil regime case, i'm not sure where chillul hashem fits into halacha.. like, what if we have the upper hand or don't have the knife on our throats, and are told to sin,. Then I would guess it's a big chillul hashem to sin, and we can fight them rather than die.. Do they have to be saying "sin", break halacha.. for it to be a chillul hashem. The arabs of course don't know it to be - though christians would see it as against the torah, so if it's about public perception then it would be seen as a sin by the public, so a chillul hashem.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2008, 08:53:54 PM »
Rav Kahane wanted to wipe out chillul hashem.. 

wipe out ?   Source?   What does this mean?


Offline q_q_

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2008, 10:39:24 PM »
Rav Kahane wanted to wipe out chillul hashem.. 

wipe out ?   Source?   What does this mean?


rabbi kahane did write and speak about chillul hashem.. there may be something in "why be jewish" about it, saying as I said that jewish weakness is chillul hashem, and thus jewish strength is kiddush hashem.

I'm sure he wrote explicitly about wiping out chillul hashem, but it's obvious that is what he wanted to do.

Any rabbi would want to stop chillul hashem from occurring.. They just wouldn't define jewish weakness as chillul hashem.  (though the bible does use that term, the exile is a chillul hashem, so it's a negative thing we live with for some time)

removing the mosque from the temple mount would be an example of ending a chillul hashem.

the state of israel is an example of jewish strength, thus rabbi kahane says, kiddush hashem..

I think it's in hte book "why be jewish", though it doesn't seem to be available online (anymore, anywhere)

Offline spiritus_persona

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2008, 11:02:07 PM »
Why does any Jew want to go to Russia?  Doesn't Russia still believe in "The Protocols"?
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Offline q_q_

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2008, 11:13:33 PM »
Why does any Jew want to go to Russia?  Doesn't Russia still believe in "The Protocols"?

I'm not entirely sure what their story is.

jews aren't going there. maybe some are but I haven't heard of it.


I have heard stories of many only recently discovering that they are jewish, and wanting to explore that.


maybe some just never got out. But then they'd have had to stay alive.

I know that with jews in germany, obviously the vast majourity staying in germany were caught. A small number stayed in germany during the holocaust and managed to survive. One used an egg to copy a stamp onto documents he forged to make it look like he was a regular german. The germans would stop people randomly frequently "legit" germans, and ask for documentation.  They could stop anybody.  Eventually he got caught..(a silly or wicked jew that was caught, saw him and said "oh they caught you too".) He was put on a truck to a concentration camp.  He had smuggled some tools in his jacket pocket, and dirlled a hole in the truck and jumped out.  There was a BBC documentary on some of these unbelievalbe jews.  Another one survived stealing food from shops at night.   I don't know how the situation compared in russia. 


Offline MarZutra

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2008, 09:29:28 AM »
Rabbi Kahane deals with Kiddush haShem vs. Chilul haSham in his magnus opus "Or Hara’ayon, The Jewish Idea"

Does Russia believe in the Protocol view of the Jews?  I'd honestly say yes, as well as much of Europe, especially Eastern Europe.  These Protocols pre-date the Communist Manifesto by about 15 years as stemming from a political satire work by Maurice Joly called "The Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu" from which the Protocols were plagiarized.  Some say by the Jesuits to blame the Jews for Communism.  Many different theories but all stem back to Joly's 1863-4 work which has nothing to do with Jews.  Even "The Wandering Jew" by Eugene Sue places the Jew in favorable light in comparison to the thieving and scheming Jesuit.
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2008, 09:44:56 AM »
I meant i'm not entirely sure what the story of the jews in russia is. Why they are there.

did stay during the holocaust and survive. how
did they go there from elsewhere..
e.t.c.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2008, 10:02:41 PM »
Rav Kahane wanted to wipe out chillul hashem.. 

wipe out ?   Source?   What does this mean?


Any rabbi would want to stop chillul hashem from occurring..

No argument here.

Quote
They just wouldn't define jewish weakness as chillul hashem.  (though the bible does use that term, the exile is a chillul hashem, so it's a negative thing we live with for some time)

This simply cannot be the case.  Those with more of a "galut mentality" might not, but there is a Torah true principle within what point Rabbi Kahane makes...   He makes his case well citing prophet Ezekiel, Rashi, tehillim etc from within the source material you provided me with, QQ.   None of these rabbis can honestly argue on tanach or Rashi but could only try to stretch it to something unrecognizable.    But the context is clear.

I don't want to quote out the whole text from word of mouth source, but I guess we could....   But I'm sure you get what I'm saying.

As to the "halachic" aspect of it, as I said before, halachically chillul Hashem may be something different and something very specific (perhaps a subset) within a whole category of things that is zeroed in on in the gemara as a halachic principle, but that doesn't make the overall concept of chillul Hashem irrelevant outside of that narrow halachic case.   And that was my point about this concept (chillul Hashem beyond the halachic example, though  not necessarily always about Jewish weakness/exile but other topics as well) appearing universally in orthodox Jewish thought.   It's that "non-halachically" speaking, it's not limited to that narrow case, and I feel it's a semantics game to corner it into halachic principle as if it trumps the whole concept.   It's all important.


Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2008, 10:05:00 PM »
It wouldn't be "halacha," per se, to arrange a way to remove the golden dome, but it would be good.  Including in the perspective of religious Judaism.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2008, 12:26:10 AM »
The "Chief Rabbi" has always been a puppet of the Kremlin. All of Russia's "Chief Rabbis" have always done whatever the Kremlin bosses tell them to do. This individual is disgusting. He works for the KGB against his fellow Jews.

Fonzworth, we are again getting a lot of strange threads from you.
Good observations, Chaim. This "rabbi" is obviously on the KGB's payroll. How any Jews can fall for something so obvious isn't something I can answer.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2008, 04:15:29 AM »
<snip>I feel it's a semantics game to corner it into halachic principle as if it trumps the whole concept.   It's all important.

It does change the concept quite a bit..

When I read Ezekiel 36, I saw ...(you may read it yourself and come to different conclusions I'd be interested to know if you do.. I don't have it in front of me right now to quote from , but this is what I recall of what I got from it)

Biblically, the exile is a chillul hashem, largely because the jewish weakness that comes with it is a chillul hashem.. because it causes the nations to scoff and say "where is their G-d"

It's an accepted thing. Better the exile, than we desecrate the holy land by misbehaving there.
G-d will bring us back, not for our sake, but for the sake of his name, and he will purify us.

So this biblical chillul hashem that is inherent in the exile, is a negative thing but it's given by G-d, that much chillul hashem, we accept. The exile is G-d's decree.  it's something we're meant to accept.

Whether we should fight the rest of it, like zealouts, is another matter. Maybe the story of the Maccabee-chanukah time is a proof that we should..

But the key conceptual difference between halachic chillul hashem, and the biblical, is that in the biblical one, it is to an extent, an accepted thing.

Infact, if you look at the pasukim referenced in the three oaths in the gemara, this is in the bible, you see when we were put into exile(I think this was the first exile), we were told, ordered, to be subservient, or told that we would have to be subservient or something.

The theme of jewish strength as a positive thing, and jewish weakness as a negative thing, is throughout the bible.

The holocaust is the most horrendous example of jewish weakness, or rather, of the jewish weakness inherent in exile. The strength of the nations over us..
And all would agree we don't want that to happen again, and we should do all we can to prevent it happening again. 

The one real argument I heard for religious zionism is from Rabbi Kahane.  He said regarding 1967 "who wins wars in 6 days?"

To me, it  is most likely, that this is a sign, not just that G-d wanted us to defeat our enemies, and not get massacred again so soon after the holocaust.  But that G-d gave us a victory paralleling our biblical victory  conquering the holy land in the time of yehoshua.

And if thits is indeed the case that G-d gave us this state, he wants us to run it, he wants us to defend it , not just to not be massacred, but to run it. This is biblically sanctifying his name..biblical kiddush hashem. Jewish strength.

The nations didn't say "where is your G-d"

On the contrary..  We inspired hoards of christians/evangelical christians, to love israel and praise G-d!!!

Quote from: KahaneBT
It wouldn't be "halacha," per se, to arrange a way to remove the golden dome, but it would be good.  Including in the perspective of religious Judaism.

Not necessarily..

The charedim give the argument that were the dome removed... the plans of secular israelis, the ruling power, would be implemented.

They want to build some silly thing there (I can't remember what)

That would be a HUGE REAL Chillul Hashem. A Halachic Chillul HaShem.
(and here's another scenario, though fortunately reform are small in israel. Can you imagine if reform build a so-called synagogue over there, what they call a temple!!!!  The israeli government in their anti religious fervour would want to do it - though they need Orthodox jews in their coalition, so they couldn't)