Why does JTF bans posts condemning Non-Muslim Religious support for Nazis?

[AryehYehudah]

Hi, an admin just wiped out my post.. I won't go into the details.  I really do respect many Christians and know many risked their lives to save Jews in the holocaust.  However, what annoys me is that the we can openly speak out against any form of anti-semitism of evil that Muslims commit, but the one minute we speak about a non-muslims, who supports nazis, the post is removed.

 I mean, there is a very big religious organization right now who is glorying a man who was a nazi and refusing to visit Israel because the Jews will not agree with them on the person.  Why is this less a threat to us JEws than a Muslim who supports a nazi or murdering of Jews.  I really feel that the JTF website is not 100% run for the interest of Jews and in the effect, we will sooner or later see the interests of others take precedent of our own.  The fact that an admin will censor such and important topic on a Jewish website, makes me feel that we Jews have little control over this.  Look at George Bush trying to force Israel to give away GOlan Heights to Arabs.  Do you see what happens when we try to let outsiders have authority over our land and government?   

The entire Israeli government was handpicked at the interest of American liberals.   It appears JTF is turning blind eye to any non-Islamic aggression, saying it doesn't exist.  This is very arrogant on your part and in the end will result in the dissolution of this organization.  I am talking to many JEws who are already unhappy about the way JTF treats its Jewish members, in favor of Christians, some with conflicting views to Jewish interest.   I am very disappointed in JTF for banning my post on an important subject and I pray that our voice and concerns can be shared with gentiles in way that we both can accept.  I think this constant trying to make non-Jews happy, by only bashing Muslims is damaging this site's integrity.   

So now, my post is removed, we can have a very powerful group of individuals making a hero of a nazi, while JTF just shuts its mouth.   Pardon, hope I don't get banned for being honest.

Please Admins don't remove this post, if JTF just censors out all speech, this movement will be useless to Jews. WE Jews should pack our bags and go elsewhere, as we don't feel welcome.

[muman613]

Shalom AryehYehudah,

I will attempt to address your concerns. On most issues I agree with you and I have supported you in many postings. But I completely understand the reason why we should not make postings which could be offensive to our Christian associates. Many of them come here with a generous heart and want to be a part of the movement to help us regain our sacred and holy land. Regardless of what their intimate intentions are we should at least accept their graciousness and not be rude and dismissive of their feelings.

I know that I have said things in the past which have upset some of our righteous gentiles. I often apologize simply because I feel for the other persons soul. Every human being has a soul and a Jew needs to be aware of his impact on a non-Jew and try to bring him closer to Hashem. Being rude and offensive to someone who could end up being a brother to you is not wise. Us Jews believe that Hashems truth will be known, one way or another it cannot be avoided. So our mission involves bringing those who don't share our beliefs in the ONE to some way assist us in bringing about his kingdom on earth. I dont think it is that hard to understand. As always we know that they have their own beliefs and we have our own beliefs. We dont need to force them to believe what we do. I just dont want to allow them to try to make us believe their beliefs. This is why JTF is against all missionising.

I think I know the issue which is bothering you and I tell you that it bothers me too. I believe that the Church has reconsidered its Beatification of the Pope Pious because of the new information which came out which shows how the Pope did not do as much as he could to ease the suffering of the Jews at the hands of the Germans. We will see how this turns out.

muman613

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Hi, an admin just wiped out my post.. I won't go into the details.  I really do respect many Christians and know many risked their lives to save Jews in the holocaust.  However, what annoys me is that the we can openly speak out against any form of anti-semitism of evil that Muslims commit, but the one minute we speak about a non-muslims, who supports nazis, the post is removed.

 I mean, there is a very big religious organization right now who is glorying a man who was a nazi and refusing to visit Israel because the Jews will not agree with them on the person.  Why is this less a threat to us JEws than a Muslim who supports a nazi or murdering of Jews.  I really feel that the JTF website is not 100% run for the interest of Jews and in the effect, we will sooner or later see the interests of others take precedent of our own.  The fact that an admin will censor such and important topic on a Jewish website, makes me feel that we Jews have little control over this.  Look at George Bush trying to force Israel to give away GOlan Heights to Arabs.  Do you see what happens when we try to let outsiders have authority over our land and government?   

The entire Israeli government was handpicked at the interest of American liberals.   It appears JTF is turning blind eye to any non-Islamic aggression, saying it doesn't exist.  This is very arrogant on your part and in the end will result in the dissolution of this organization.  I am talking to many JEws who are already unhappy about the way JTF treats its Jewish members, in favor of Christians, some with conflicting views to Jewish interest.   I am very disappointed in JTF for banning my post on an important subject and I pray that our voice and concerns can be shared with gentiles in way that we both can accept.  I think this constant trying to make non-Jews happy, by only bashing Muslims is damaging this site's integrity.   

So now, my post is removed, we can have a very powerful group of individuals making a hero of a nazi, while JTF just shuts its mouth.   Pardon, hope I don't get banned for being honest.

Please Admins don't remove this post, if JTF just censors out all speech, this movement will be useless to Jews. WE Jews should pack our bags and go elsewhere, as we don't feel welcome.

What are you talking about?

[Americanhero1]

Hi, an admin just wiped out my post.. I won't go into the details.  I really do respect many Christians and know many risked their lives to save Jews in the holocaust.  However, what annoys me is that the we can openly speak out against any form of anti-semitism of evil that Muslims commit, but the one minute we speak about a non-muslims, who supports nazis, the post is removed.

 I mean, there is a very big religious organization right now who is glorying a man who was a nazi and refusing to visit Israel because the Jews will not agree with them on the person.  Why is this less a threat to us JEws than a Muslim who supports a nazi or murdering of Jews.  I really feel that the JTF website is not 100% run for the interest of Jews and in the effect, we will sooner or later see the interests of others take precedent of our own.  The fact that an admin will censor such and important topic on a Jewish website, makes me feel that we Jews have little control over this.  Look at George Bush trying to force Israel to give away GOlan Heights to Arabs.  Do you see what happens when we try to let outsiders have authority over our land and government?   

The entire Israeli government was handpicked at the interest of American liberals.   It appears JTF is turning blind eye to any non-Islamic aggression, saying it doesn't exist.  This is very arrogant on your part and in the end will result in the dissolution of this organization.  I am talking to many JEws who are already unhappy about the way JTF treats its Jewish members, in favor of Christians, some with conflicting views to Jewish interest.   I am very disappointed in JTF for banning my post on an important subject and I pray that our voice and concerns can be shared with gentiles in way that we both can accept.  I think this constant trying to make non-Jews happy, by only bashing Muslims is damaging this site's integrity.   

So now, my post is removed, we can have a very powerful group of individuals making a hero of a nazi, while JTF just shuts its mouth.   Pardon, hope I don't get banned for being honest.

Please Admins don't remove this post, if JTF just censors out all speech, this movement will be useless to Jews. WE Jews should pack our bags and go elsewhere, as we don't feel welcome.

What are you talking about?

He posted a topic about the pope which was taken down

[AryehYehudah]

Yes, well I respect what you say Muman and I in no way want to offend CHristians or Catholics, especially since i know many are religious and good people who support Jews and Israel.  However, the followers of a religion don't always agree with one another, nor do they coincide with their authorities.  As for what you say about Pious, I think you are watering down the truth about the situation.  This post was in regards to a conflict at the Holocaust museum, where history of the man is presented.  It was not only to say he did not speak out enough, but rather, turned a blind eye and even supported nazis.  Now there is a conflict about this between Israel and Rome. This is a seperate subject to the one you are addressing about the beautification of the man.  We Jews openly admit when we have bad Jews and always thrash people of our religion who commit evil acts.  How come we have to keep our mouth shut about evil men of other non-Jewish and non-Islamic religions?  Why cannot us Jews and Catholics come to the agreement that not all Jewish and Catholic leaders are saints and some have done bad things.   As for the current Pope, I did not insult him, but rather was sharing my disappointment that he is neglecting the truth on this issue.  Last I checked this was a Jewish website, not a Catholic website.  I do respect many Catholics; I hope people don't misunderstand me, but the Pope is not my Messiah or religious leader, and I can voice out concerns I have about a religious leader who is doing something I feel goes against Jewish interests. 

I mean he refuses to visit Israel, but is planning a trip to Saudi Arabia.    Why cannot he come visit our country, which the church is connected with, but will visit the country of Arabs?http://www.frankrmazzaglia.com/columns/view.cgi?cmd=column&id=139

Well, I don't want to say too much more, I already had one post get removed.  

[muman613]

Yes, well I respect what you say Muman and I in no way want to offend CHristians or Catholics, especially since i know many are religious and good people who support Jews and Israel.  However, the followers of a religion don't always agree with one another, nor do they coincide with their authorities.  As for what you say about Pious, I think you are watering down the truth about the situation.  This post was in regards to a conflict at the Holocaust museum, where history of the man is presented.  It was not only to say he did not speak out enough, but rather, turned a blind eye and even supported nazis.  Now there is a conflict about this between Israel and Rome. This is a seperate subject to the one you are addressing about the beautification of the man.  We Jews openly admit when we have bad Jews and always thrash people of our religion who commit evil acts.  How come we have to keep our mouth shut about evil men of other non-Islamic religions?  Why cannot us Jews and Catholics come to the agreement that not all Jewish and Catholic leaders are saints and some have done bad things.   As for the current Pope, I did not insult him, but rather was sharing my disappointment that he is neglecting the truth on this issue.  Last I checked this was a Jewish website, not a Catholic website.  I do respect many Catholics; I hope people don't misunderstand me, but the Pope is not my Messiah or religious leader, and I can voice out concerns I have about a religious leader who is doing something I feel goes against Jewish interests.

Well, I don't want to say too much more, I already had one post get removed. 

Friend,

I dont really know much about the Church. But my impression is that it still holds a lot of power in the life of the religion. It is hard to separate the Church from the theology. I believe Catholics actually believe that the Pope receives his power from G-d himself. This makes him a very powerful person in the eyes of the believers. I dont think it is possible to say things about the Pope and the Church without casting a pock on the entire system. I really dont agree with this ideology, but I understand it and attempt to work with it.

Please dont feel that you are being restricted, yet also restrain yourself from saying things which could be taken the wrong way. We can talk in private messages about the best way to express your feeling. I dont want to see you banned in the least because I believe you truly feel the way you do because of your firm beliefs {which I think I share}. There is a lot to be upset about in this world but a wise man picks his battles and knows when to gather people together. I hope that moderation is the goal, not extremism.

muman613

[Lisa]

Here's how I see it.

The RCC has never been a friend of Israel (although the previous Pope, to his credit, tried to improve relations with Jews).  Chaim even said so on the most recent Ask JTF.  So if the people in Israel are going to be so stupid as to remove part of their Holocaust exhibit so as not to offend the Pope, then it's really about them being self-hating appeasers and nothing more. 

Personally, I don't care if the Pope visits Israel or not, or even if he goes to Saudi Arabia.  Neither should the people in Israel.   That's the Church's business.  They're looking out for themselves and for Catholics.  The important thing is that there is a State of Israel, and that Israel has the best army in the entire region.  We at JTF have to make sure our message gets across to them, and that hopefully Chaim gets into Israel to become Prime Minister.  If Israel had a real, Torah true, right wing government, then this business about whether or not other people visit the state becomes irrelevant. 

We Jews also have to learn to look out for our own interests and close ranks, rather than putting efforts (like so many American Jews) into chi chi causes like the environment, or animal rights, to name a few things. 

[mord]

I read Joseph Ratzinger said that it was a misunderstanding and he never said that

[Shamgar]

The Pope is a Christian?   

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I disagree with the Vatican on many issues, but there is no reason to attack Catholicism. Many Catholics are our allies and love the nation of Israel.

[Rubystars]

Do you guys have any idea how many millions of Catholics there are? There is a large diversity of opinion within that huge group of people. Please don't lump them all together as if they'll do everything Ratzinger or another person tells them to do without thinking.

It's very hard in today's culture of critical thinking and theological questioning for someone's words to go completely unquestioned, even if it is the Pope himself speaking to Catholics.

I'm not Catholic but I have known many good, very pro-Israel Catholic people.

[AryehYehudah]

I disagree with the Vatican on many issues, but there is no reason to attack Catholicism. Many Catholics are our allies and love the nation of Israel.

I never attacked Catholicism or Catholics at all.  I made a simple post about the vatican stating that the Pope will refuse to visit ISrael until the HOlocaust museum removes the exhibit on Pope Pious.  The holocaust museum brings the truth out that he was a nazi collaborator, which many historians agree, and the Vatican is trying to brush it under the table and strongarm Israel into denying plain historical facts.   I have much respect for many Catholics, but when their leadership is doing something that I consider anti-semitic,  I get alarmed.  I even would like to  hear from Catholics and their views about this.    If they are truly our allies, why do we have to just shut our mouth when their leadershp is doing something that is not good for us Jewish people.  If there was a Jewish leader who was slaughtering Catholics or Christians or who did this 60 years ago, I would never deny it and try to force Catholics from denying this happened.

For the person who said that Pope Gregory denied ever refusing to come to Israel, please show me your source, because I have not heard such a thing.

[SavetheWest]

Aryeh,
I noticed you joined fairly recently.  A few months back, there was a huge problem with a member posting terrible things about Catholics and the Church and it caused a lot of problems.  There's no way for you to know that so that may be some of the misunderstanding.  If you check through the postings, I assure you, that white Nazis, Pat Buchanan, David Duke and other anti-Semites have been dealt with in the past.  They are so marginalized in America, (even though they should never be ignored) and they are not as critical of a situation as the Muslims.  Islam, just like Nazism, has key components that are anti-Semitic.  Anti-Semitic Christians of the past had to really bend Christianity to use it to promote hatred against Jews.  Islam also has 1.2 billion members, with 90% of them praying for Israels destruction.
For every Gordon Kahl and Robert Matthews there are 10000 Osama Ben Ladens.  Also, there are whole nations with armies right at Israels doorstep with anti-Semitic  armies.  White Nazis can't get more than 10 people to a state capitol to protest.  Are you going to worry about an old man who threatens you, or a whole gang of young thugs? 

Also, the pope is a sore subject.  No one denies history but Catholics here love and support Israel and they also see the pope as holy.  I really think it must be a misunderstanding with this pope as John Paul was friendly and open to Israel and the Jews.

[Ambiorix]

I agree with AryehYehudah that it might be a mistake of JTF to focus solely on anti-judaists of muslim faith.
However, I don't think JTF only focusses on muslim-anti-Israeli.

The truth is, that in Europe, Russia, arabia, north-africa, south-america, and in the USA, anti-semitism is on the rise.
I hear speech against Jews and Israel the last couple of years, that were very rare before 2000.

So my personal idea is, that the Vatican Church, and the left-wing mass media in the Europe, south-america,... are influencing the public opinion against Israel, so to annexate it in a later stadium god forbid.

I am quite shure, that is the true intention of the Catholic Church!

What the right strategy is for the Jews, to handle this problem, is in fact up to them.

The bad thing for us Whites / people of Europeans descent , is that right now, 63 years of WWII and the "Endlösing", we are facing our own extermination, by the massive immigration and birthrate of non-whites, and the lower than ever birthrates of our race.

Jews cannot really be totally ignorant about this, because if the West fall in the hands of the non-whites,
Israel's future will be quite grim. (France's, The U.S.'s, Russia's & England's nuclear arsenal falling in the hands of non-white anti-semites e.g.)

I can only say, that we Europeans,  regardless of faith, should cooperate with right-wing Jews, instead of collaborating with muslims, to support a second Holocaust on Israeli.
Because, if Israel is annexed by the muslims, and the arabians join the European Union, then, we Native Whites, can forget about keeping our countries, relligion/customs, European.

Right now, we are shure, that if nothing changes, the Whites will be outnumbered in 2050-2070, if the current non-white immigration, and non-white baby-boom in white countries continues.
The same for Israel. If Israel does not remove it's muslim arabs, Jews will be outnumbered in Israel soon.

That leaves even more questions, and I really hope JTF will be able to turn the tide for the benefit of the Jews in Israel,
even if that directly, doesn't help me, or other Europeans in our battle against alien invaders.

I believe the Jews, have a right to a safe homeland, and so do the Whites.

[Ambiorix]

Aryeh,
I noticed you joined fairly recently.  A few months back, there was a huge problem with a member posting terrible things about Catholics and the Church and it caused a lot of problems.  There's no way for you to know that so that may be some of the misunderstanding.  If you check through the postings, I assure you, that white Nazis, Pat Buchanan, David Duke and other anti-Semites have been dealt with in the past.  They are so marginalized in America, (even though they should never be ignored) and they are not as critical of a situation as the Muslims.  Islam, just like Nazism, has key components that are anti-Semitic.  Anti-Semitic Christians of the past had to really bend Christianity to use it to promote hatred against Jews.  Islam also has 1.2 billion members, with 90% of them praying for Israels destruction.
For every Gordon Kahl and Robert Matthews there are 10000 Osama Ben Ladens.  Also, there are whole nations with armies right at Israels doorstep with anti-Semitic  armies.  White Nazis can't get more than 10 people to a state capitol to protest.  Are you going to worry about an old man who threatens you, or a whole gang of young thugs? 

Also, the pope is a sore subject.  No one denies history but Catholics here love and support Israel and they also see the pope as holy.  I really think it must be a misunderstanding with this pope as John Paul was friendly and open to Israel and the Jews.

North West JTF,
Sorry, to inform you, but the David Dukes etc,... are only one group of White Israel-haters.

The European Union-and it's mass-media, are bassically promoting the destruction of Israel non-stop, since decades.
Today, in the EU, holocaust-denial , racial hatred by Whites is forbidden, but the muslims here in Europe,
can openly praise hitler, and these racist muslim dogs harrass our people all the time in our cities.

When Europe will be 49-51% whites/non-whites, it will take only a few more steps to start a nuclear war against Israel.

If the Catholic Church would be defending the people of Europe, it should have oppposed immigration.

It didn't, nor did the social-democrats.

Now, we see what RCC and socialists turned Europe into.
Our White Race/Nations/Relgions, and the Jewish Nation/People/Religion facing extermination!

Now when will there be Christian Leaders, that advocate what needs to be done to turn the tide?

[Dr. Dan]

Who are you referring to?

Secondly, we hate Nazis of all types..and nazi supporters of all types. We even go as far as calling certain Jews as Nazis..so it's hard for me to believe your post was specifically deleted because it was a specific non-Muslim nazi..and certainly, you haven't given us one in your original post...so it must have been something else.

Were you condemning a group of non-Muslims or a nation that might have supported nazis, but are really currently our friends, such as the Irish or Italanian Americans?  Catholic Americans?  Christian Americans?  Quite simply, we love all righteous people...Jew and Gentile..and we hate all nazis and nazi types and anti-semites.  We do not hate whole groups of people necessarily...we hate the specific person who is the nazi...so tell us who it is.

[Dr. Dan]

I disagree with the Vatican on many issues, but there is no reason to attack Catholicism. Many Catholics are our allies and love the nation of Israel.

I never attacked Catholicism or Catholics at all.  I made a simple post about the vatican stating that the Pope will refuse to visit ISrael until the HOlocaust museum removes the exhibit on Pope Pious.  The holocaust museum brings the truth out that he was a nazi collaborator, which many historians agree, and the Vatican is trying to brush it under the table and strongarm Israel into denying plain historical facts.   I have much respect for many Catholics, but when their leadership is doing something that I consider anti-semitic,  I get alarmed.  I even would like to  hear from Catholics and their views about this.    If they are truly our allies, why do we have to just shut our mouth when their leadershp is doing something that is not good for us Jewish people.  If there was a Jewish leader who was slaughtering Catholics or Christians or who did this 60 years ago, I would never deny it and try to force Catholics from denying this happened.

For the person who said that Pope Gregory denied ever refusing to come to Israel, please show me your source, because I have not heard such a thing.

Ok now that I have read what you meant to write, I have to agree wtih you that yo uhad a right to post this also with the disclaimer that you're not attacking righteous catholics or their religion.  I feel your post should not have been removed and an intelligent conversation adn debate coudl have ensued from it.

[AryehYehudah]

Thank you Dr. Dan for your understanding.

[Dr. Dan]

Thank you Dr. Dan for your understanding.

So perhaps we shoudl have a discussion.  If it were a real fact that this specific pope was involved in the murder of Jews and not the opposite, a movement like our's would never remove it.  We would respectfully tell those specific catholics who are friends and allies of ours that we should be righteous and not stand in the way hiding people of history who are evil no matter what race, religion they come from.  Do Jews hide their monsters?  Or shoudl i say, does JTF hide the Jews who were monsters?  No.  Catholics need to understand that the same backbone is necessary for their own good.  I konw that if JTF were ruling in Israel and a friend of their's said, I dont' like how you have posted that Pope so and so did this and did that (and give no proof that he never did that), they wouldn't back down, nor shoudl they. on the other hand, if those catholics or the vatican offered good proof otherwise, then ISrael should examine it thoughtfully..and remove it if the vatican is correct in their evidence...in the name of justice.