On voting in a church

[muman613]

Shalom,

The other day while I was chatting in the chat room I brought up that I have to vote in a church. This has been an issue with me but I asked my Rabbi and investigated this issue on the network. Apparently this question was posed to the Ask the Rabbi at Yeshiva.org.il and I will reprint the question and answer here:

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?srch=1&orderby=&q=voting+in+church&cat=1

Question:
I am what people would term a dati tziyoni jew currently living in chu"l. Is it permissable for me to attend martial arts classes if they are held, once a week, in the hall of a church, and this is the only location that teaches this specific art? Presumably it is not the part where people pray but rather a function hall etc. and possibly it is not connected to the main church at all (i haven’t been there yet, hence my question, so i wouldnt know).
Thank you.

Answer:
It is forbidden to enter the sanctuary of a church, even when prayer is not conducted. Other rooms in the building may be entered if it is not during the time when prayer is being conducted in the sanctuary, if the entrance is not that which a churchgoer would normally use to enter the sanctuary, and if the purpose is not religious (for instance if a voting booth is in a church).

Basically voting in a church is OK so long as the voting occurs during time when the church is not having services and you can enter through a door not used by members of the congregation and the voting is occurring in a room other than the sanctuary.

muman613

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

I had this exact problem a few years ago when I lived in another state, where voting was held in a church. I consulted a Rav; he told me the same thing, that as long as its not in the sanctuary of the church (it was in the church hall.)

[nopeaceforland]

Why in a religious place at all? I work in a public library, and we are doubling as a polling place on Tuesday. This is Newark, NJ btw. Do you live in a small town or something?

[AsheDina]

  I guess I am a 'liberal' Jew, it doesnt bother me at all. I know who I am, and what I believe.....HOWEVER- if it was in a mosque- thats another question.
muman, I sent you a message, I hope it want offensive or something.

[q_q_]

  I guess I am a 'liberal' Jew, it doesnt bother me at all. I know who I am, and what I believe.....HOWEVER- if it was in a mosque- thats another question.
muman, I sent you a message, I hope it want offensive or something.

It's not about personal preference..  or being personally bothered by going in there.

It's about law.. Jewish law says you can't go in (the main part) so you can't go in. According to jewish law.  It's considered a place of idolatry, strictly speaking.

-Technically- one can enter a mosque. Though one shouldn't want to.

A religious jew can't go into a hindu temple either,  a legal point. Even if every hindu in the temple is a great person and even a JTFer!

It's a legal thing.

Just like somebody is jewish if their mother is jewish, or they converted.
 
Sounds harsh and strict, if somebody feels jewish and only has a jewish father, and doesn't want to convert.  But law is law.

Similarly, religions can have offensive beliefs .. e.g. some christians thinking jews iwll go to hell.  Doctrine is doctrine, so what. It doesn't harm anybody. And it's often not their personal preference.. (sometimes it is, and it just justifies the fact that they hate jews anyway, and that's bad!!) ..

But these things like law or doctrine, are not about picking and choosing and personal preferences.

A jew should be bothered about the concept of going into a church.. But because it's forbidden.. And it's easy not to go in one.. usually.
I must say.. I living in europe wouldn't want to go in one.. Because of the centuries of persecution..  Infact, as recently as 10 years ago I knew of jews that had been socializing with gentiles and they'd asked where their horns were.

[nessuno]

  I guess I am a 'liberal' Jew, it doesnt bother me at all. I know who I am, and what I believe.....HOWEVER- if it was in a mosque- thats another question.
muman, I sent you a message, I hope it want offensive or something.

It's not about personal preference..  or being personally bothered by going in there.

It's about law.. Jewish law says you can't go in (the main part) so you can't go in. According to jewish law.  It's considered a place of idolatry, strictly speaking.

-Technically- one can enter a mosque. Though one shouldn't want to.

A religious jew can't go into a hindu temple either,  a legal point. Even if every hindu in the temple is a great person and even a JTFer!

It's a legal thing.

Just like somebody is jewish if their mother is jewish, or they converted.
 
Sounds harsh and strict, if somebody feels jewish and only has a jewish father, and doesn't want to convert.  But law is law.

Similarly, religions can have offensive beliefs .. e.g. some christians thinking jews iwll go to hell.  Doctrine is doctrine, so what. It doesn't harm anybody. And it's often not their personal preference.. (sometimes it is, and it just justifies the fact that they hate jews anyway, and that's bad!!) ..

But these things like law or doctrine, are not about picking and choosing and personal preferences.

A jew should be bothered about the concept of going into a church.. But because it's forbidden.. And it's easy not to go in one.. usually.
I must say.. I living in europe wouldn't want to go in one.. Because of the centuries of persecution..  Infact, as recently as 10 years ago I knew of jews that had been socializing with gentiles and they'd asked where their horns were.

A very interesting post q_q_.  It helps that you have explained it in this way.  Otherwise - I agree with AsheDina, except that I'm not a Jewish person, I know who I am and what I believe.  I could vote anywhere, even if I were not happy to do so...except for a mosque.  Thanks for your post.

[q_q_]

A very interesting post q_q_.  It helps that you have explained it in this way.  Otherwise - I agree with AsheDina, except that I'm not a Jewish person, I know who I am and what I believe.  I could vote anywhere, even if I were not happy to do so...except for a mosque.  Thanks for your post.

no prob..

I wish these things were just obvious to everybody.

[nessuno]

Things you think should be obvious aren't...because we all come at life from a different perspective.
You must keep that in mind...

[q_q_]

Things you think should be obvious aren't...because we all come at life from a different perspective.
You must keep that in mind...

I did, I always consider different perspectives, and that only provides more reason why it should be obvious. 

I know it's not obvious to most people, the average person is thick, but you're quite intelligent.

Ann Coulter's beliefs caused such offence because people don't get it.  It was obvious to her.

She is coming from a very different place to me.

[nessuno]

Well q_q_, the first time I heard ever heard this issue brought up,  I understood that the person objected to the polling place because of how it would appear if they came out of a church.  It, also, was my understanding that they felt they shouldn't be exposed to any aspect of the church and it's influence.
Having reached the age I am and being secure in my faith...I really couldn't understand that line of thinking.

Your explanation though...made sense to me and helped me to understand the feelings of this other person.
So I am sorry that it was not obvious to me...but it wasn't.

I would object to voting in a mosque and maybe some other places...but I wouldn't whine about it.   I would vote by absentee ballot.

[q_q_]

Well q_q_, the first time I heard ever heard this issue brought up,  I understood that the person objected to the polling place because of how it would appear if they came out of a church.  It, also, was my understanding that they felt they shouldn't be exposed to any aspect of the church and it's influence.
Having reached the age I am and being secure in my faith...I really couldn't understand that line of thinking.

Your explanation though...made sense to me and helped me to understand the feelings of this other person.
So I am sorry that it was not obvious to me...but it wasn't.

I would object to voting in a mosque and maybe some other places...but I wouldn't whine about it.   I would vote by absentee ballot.

I was certainly not explaining the feelings or thinking of muman..

I think your impression of his "reasons"/feelings are correct..

I was ignoring him (notice I didn't quote him), and I was dealing with the issue he "brought up" about entering a church.

[muman613]

Well q_q_, the first time I heard ever heard this issue brought up,  I understood that the person objected to the polling place because of how it would appear if they came out of a church.  It, also, was my understanding that they felt they shouldn't be exposed to any aspect of the church and it's influence.
Having reached the age I am and being secure in my faith...I really couldn't understand that line of thinking.

Your explanation though...made sense to me and helped me to understand the feelings of this other person.
So I am sorry that it was not obvious to me...but it wasn't.

I would object to voting in a mosque and maybe some other places...but I wouldn't whine about it.   I would vote by absentee ballot.

bullcat3,

This has nothing to do with personal feelings about the church. I have simply stated that the Halacha concerning this has been decided and any Jew who wants to follow the Halacha {Jewish law} should do what the Rabbis suggest.

There is the issue of Chillul Hashem which would be seen when a religious Jew is seen in a church which contains imagery and other things which goes against the beliefs of a Jew. The concept of Chillul Hashem seems to be beyond some of the people reading this here but there are good explanations of this on the internet. Chillul Hashem is a transgression which occurs when a person observes a Jew violating Halacha. Like if a non-Jew observes a Jew who is obviously observant going into a McDonalds and ordering a cheeseburger {Chas Veshalom}. This causes a degradation of G-ds name in this world.

The issue is not whether I like or don't like the church. The issue is that the church represents that which is not in line with Jewish belief.

muman613

PS: Notice I ignored q_q_ in my post... And q_q_ is not qualified to speak on my behalf.

[AsheDina]

 q_q is like a mentor to me. He was referring to me. I just dont have any issues with churches, I am also not Orthodox. I just dont have issues with it, and there are things that are more major to me.  My friends lots of them being full on Christians, have NEVER pushed me into their doctrines or beliefs.
 
    I WILL SAY that when a Jewish person is SINCERELY wanting to totally fulfill the will of HaShem, he/she NEEDS to practice Judaism all the way, or none at all, so in this I am in agreement with Muman & q_q. 

   I also believe that ALL Jews NEED to be RESTORED to Torah and Judaism TOTALLY, & this takes time.  This is why I am 100% AGAINST ANY type of 'missionizing' I feel that Jews need to HELP Jews go BACK to G-d, and Christians NEED to pull Christians BACK to Christianity. 
  I am doing what I can, as a person who has TOTAL and COMPLETE faith in HaShem. 100%. 

[q_q_]

q_q is like a mentor to me. He was referring to me. I just dont have any issues with churches, I am also not Orthodox. I just dont have issues with it, and there are things that are more major to me.  My friends lots of them being full on Christians, have NEVER pushed me into their doctrines or beliefs.
 
    I WILL SAY that when a Jewish person is SINCERELY wanting to totally fulfill the will of HaShem, he/she NEEDS to practice Judaism all the way, or none at all, so in this I am in agreement with Muman & q_q. 

   I also believe that ALL Jews NEED to be RESTORED to Torah and Judaism TOTALLY, & this takes time.  This is why I am 100% AGAINST ANY type of 'missionizing' I feel that Jews need to HELP Jews go BACK to G-d, and Christians NEED to pull Christians BACK to Christianity. 
  I am doing what I can, as a person who has TOTAL and COMPLETE faith in HaShem. 100%. 

You are an inspiration to dozens.

I'm honoured that you say i'm like a mentor to you

[AsheDina]

q_q is like a mentor to me. He was referring to me. I just dont have any issues with churches, I am also not Orthodox. I just dont have issues with it, and there are things that are more major to me.  My friends lots of them being full on Christians, have NEVER pushed me into their doctrines or beliefs.
 
    I WILL SAY that when a Jewish person is SINCERELY wanting to totally fulfill the will of HaShem, he/she NEEDS to practice Judaism all the way, or none at all, so in this I am in agreement with Muman & q_q. 

   I also believe that ALL Jews NEED to be RESTORED to Torah and Judaism TOTALLY, & this takes time.  This is why I am 100% AGAINST ANY type of 'missionizing' I feel that Jews need to HELP Jews go BACK to G-d, and Christians NEED to pull Christians BACK to Christianity. 
  I am doing what I can, as a person who has TOTAL and COMPLETE faith in HaShem. 100%. 

You are an inspiration to dozens.

I'm honoured that you say i'm like a mentor to you

  q_q, the reason that I really like you, is because you really are pretty much Torah, all Torah & nothing but Torah. Jews have to RETURN TO TORAH not to lots of other teachers. Most of the time, you point to TORAH. That is the ONLY necessity to bring Jews back. The POWER is in TORAH.