Is the Moreh Nevuchim heretical?

[Sefardic Panther]

The Rambam was certainly far ahead of his time. He said that only fools believe in magic and astrology when everyone else thought the world was flat. Although his views were contrary to many other Hakamim

[q_q_]

The Rambam was certainly far ahead of his time. He said that only fools believe in magic and astrology when everyone else thought the world was flat. Although his views were contrary to many other Hakamim

Aristotle gave as a possibility, a spherical earth. The fact is that nobody knew whether the earth was flat or not. 

As far as the RAMBAM's view on magic is concerned.
It still is contrary to scholars nowadays!

Infact, the mishna refers to those that perform illusions and those that perform magic. 

I once heard a rambamist explain it as "those that perform illusions as illusions, and those that perform illusions calling it magic"

Then you have the magic by the sorcerers in Egypt.. I read somewhere that the RAMBAM thought those were illusions.

It is so contrary with thinking nowadays, that many rabbis verge onto the obscure legend that the RAMBAM became a kabbalist in later years. There is actually a source for this. But people who hold strongly to the RAMBAM , stick to what he wrote, and reject mysticism.

There are description in the gemara where it talks of witchcraft  and it being forbidden.. the different categories of it. And it's described quite seriously. I don't see hints in the gemara that it is talking about illusions. But the RAMBAM would probably say they are illusions.

And since you mention the shape of the earth.
The RAMBAN, who by the way, knew that the earth was light in one place and dark in another place.. simultaneously , and described quite a bit that suprises many people.. He believed in magic.. I did read somewhere that he said he had witnessed it.   He criticised the RAMBAM for rejecting it totally even in tenach.

[Sefardic Panther]

I feel inclined to agree with the Rambam. The occult in general seems like primitive superstition. If fortune tellers actually are fortune tellers why do they prostitute their talent at fair grounds. Why not go to the race tracks and do the stock market they could make zillions! Ouija boards would be more convincing if they got the ghosts to move the glass around hands free. However the Rambam's opinions are not commonly held in Judaism and my Hasidic friends told me that the Rambam was mislead with his studies in greek philosophy. They said only his halakic books are valid and I should stay away from his Moreh Nevuchim. 

[muman613]

Shalom,

I believe that there are forces which are beyond our reason. Some may call this magic or mysticism but I believe that Torah supports the belief that there are powers beyond our physical sensation. Torah does specifically say to not attempt to foretell the future using divination. In Judaism we also have the concept of Mazel, the concept that all which occurs in the physical world is affected by the stars and planets. Mazel is the flow of forces in the heavens. Having said this I must clarify that I don't believe in ghosts and evil spirits. My understanding from studying Chassidis is belief in gilgul {reincarnation} with the goal of achieving Shamayin {Heaven} when a soul is perfected.

It is interesting that someone would bring this up just a day after I posted something about RAMBAMs sefers being rejected in his days because of his reliance on greek philosophy.

Does anyone know why there is a question about RAMBAMS belief in the Techiyah HaMatim? Is this principle not the last of the 13 principles of RAMBAM?

muman613

http://www.mesora.org/13principles.html
Principle XIII. Resurrection of the dead

And we have already explained it And when the person will believe all these fundamentals and his faith will be clear in them he enters into the nation of Israel and it is a mitzva to love him and to have mercy on him and to act to him according to all the ways in which God commanded us regarding loving your neighbor. And even if he did all of the sins in the Torah due to desire of the emotions, and from his physical aspect’s conquering him, he will be punished for his sins, but he still has a share in the world to come and is among the sinners of Israel. However if he rejects one of these fundamentals he leaves the nation and is a denier of the fundamentals and is called a heretic, a denier, etc.,  and it is a mitzva to hate him and to destroy him (financially - not physically to kill him. And not to steal either). And regarding him it is said (Psalms 139) “Behold will not the enemy of God be my enemy?”

[q_q_]

I feel inclined to agree with the Rambam. The occult in general seems like primitive superstition. If fortune tellers actually are fortune tellers why do they prostitute their talent at fair grounds. Why not go to the race tracks and do the stock market they could make zillions! Ouija boards would be more convincing if they got the ghosts to move the glass around hands free. However the Rambam's opinions are not commonly held in Judaism and my Hasidic friends told me that the Rambam was mislead with his studies in greek philosophy. They said only his halakic books are valid and I should stay away from his Moreh Nevuchim. 

The egyptian sorcerers in tenach sound rather convincing magicians, but I think the RAMBAM believed it to be illusion (that's what I recall from a criticism by the RAMBAN)

Moreh Nevuchim was intended for people already into aristotle, because the danger at the time was that people reading it might go along with what philosophers tell them. So the RAMBAM wrote the book to reconcile Torah concepts in the minds of one influenced by philosophy of the time.

The rabbis that opposed him weren't like charedim.. they had some good reasons to be worried..

I vaguely recall, that one thing that scared the hell out of the rabbis of the time, was that the RAMBAM said that if it can be proven that the universe did not have a beginning, that the universe was eternal, always existed, then the Torah would be null and void.   (Well, philosophers never proved that, and currently scientists say the universe had a beginning)

Another fear, was that people would go to the philosophers.  Well, that whole school of philosophy that the RAMBAM Was addressing , is not so strong anymore.

So these concerns of then, do not apply so much now.

The Charedim just want to block out the outside world..
It is as if, they say, there is a flood outside like in the time of Noah, and our homes are arks, and we must seal them up to prevent anything non-torah from entering them.  They have this extreme philosophy.  
But they would also be against television and internet(outside of work)..

They are protecting their community, and  being far stricter than necessary. Going way beyond what is required..  It seems to work actually.  It does protect the Torah. But at a cost.

Since peoples' understanding of Aristotle is not leading people astray nowadays, people don't study his theories on the universe..
I don't think reading that will cause a problem. The concerns of back then regarding reading that, do not apply today.  

But there are some things in The moreh nevuchim, which have nothin to do with Aristotle.. And they are very beneficial to read.

For example.

Looking at the mishneh torah, hilchot kiddush hachodesh, the RAMBAM appears to talk about the sun rising and setting, and he talks about things as if he believes in a faulty cosmology..  

The publisher is good, and the commentary, by an orthodox rabbi of course, even says "well, this is a big question. Maybe he was just basing what he wrote on the knowledge of the time.."

Yet.. I found the answer to the problem within Moreh Nevuchim.

The RAMBAM said that we (people at that time) do not know the cosmology.. But, the hypothesis(that e.g. the earth goes around the sun), is fine since its calculations  work. And they use that. It's the calculations that are important, and the hypothesis, whether correct or not, is accurate.    So yes, he didn't know that the earth went around the sun, but he didn't believe that the sun went around te earth either. He just said we don't know.. But this hypothesis works and so we use it.  (And sometimes a simpler picture that gets the results and lets us calculate the results, is easier than the real thing anyway, and of course, fine in this case)

Here is another example.

In the moreh nevuchim, he discusses levels of prophecy.
Nothing to do with Aristotle.
And he discusses Nevuah, and why books like Psalms are in Writings and not Neviim.  Because Psalms(Tehillim) was written with ruach hakodesh, not nevuah. Nevuah is in visions and dreams.    So he does explain many things in there.

It's not dangerous but charedim are excessively strict. To protect their community. They keep everybody sharply in line!

[q_q_]

<snip>
Does anyone know why there is a question about RAMBAMS belief in the Techiyah HaMatim? Is this principle not the last of the 13 principles of RAMBAM?
<snip>

Yes, somebody can see a question regarding it.

Techiyas Hamaysim is The Resurrection of the Dead

The question would probably be why he also says that the messianic redemption will be natural and not to expect miracles.  (this is a controversial statement)

one answer may be that there are 2 parts to the redemption, a natural and a miraculous.

[muman613]

<snip>
Does anyone know why there is a question about RAMBAMS belief in the Techiyah HaMatim? Is this principle not the last of the 13 principles of RAMBAM?
<snip>

Yes, somebody can see a question regarding it.

Techiyas Hamaysim is The Resurrection of the Dead

The question would probably be why he also says that the messianic redemption will be natural and not to expect miracles.  (this is a controversial statement)

one answer may be that there are 2 parts to the redemption, a natural and a miraculous.

Shalom,

Thank you... I am looking at some material which describes this issue.

muman613

[q_q_]

<snip>
Does anyone know why there is a question about RAMBAMS belief in the Techiyah HaMatim? Is this principle not the last of the 13 principles of RAMBAM?
<snip>

Yes, somebody can see a question regarding it.

Techiyas Hamaysim is The Resurrection of the Dead

The question would probably be why he also says that the messianic redemption will be natural and not to expect miracles.  (this is a controversial statement)

one answer may be that there are 2 parts to the redemption, a natural and a miraculous.

Shalom,

Thank you... I am looking at some material which describes this issue.

muman613

perhaps one explanation , and this is one I thought of..

The RAMBAM thought of the resurrection of the dead as a spiritual one, that way it would appear natural physically. But described poetically in tenach as if it were physically miraculous - dry bones e.t.c..

the 2 stages explanation is a common explanation, but it's probably completely read in.

If you can get hold of this Sefer by the RAMBAM, it may help, so at least one is faimilar with more  sources.  I haven't read this one. It's called Ma'amar Techiyas HaMeisim   .   I don't know if my suggested explanation on the RAMBAM's belief would hold up against that, but it might, and it's not really read in..  But I have my doubts that the 2 stage explanation would, 'cos if it was in there people would just say it was not a possible explanation, but 'the' explanation.

Apparently it puts away any question as to whether the RAMBAM believed in it.

Obviously there is no question that the RAMBAM believed in the resurrection of the dead. There is a question though as to the nature of his belief in it..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

No, the Moreh Nevuchim is not heretical.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Its not good to read, unless its shown to a heritic, I hear its not good for a normal person (and it wasn't intended- It was intended for the "Perplexed", so if your not, then dont go into philosophy, simple Emuna a is great).
  Also besides that, some Talmidim have gone into heresy from the book from studying themselves, then a Rav had to correct them on it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Its not good to read, unless its shown to a heritic, I hear its not good for a normal person (and it wasn't intended- It was intended for the "Perplexed", so if your not, then dont go into philosophy, simple Emuna a is great).
  Also besides that, some Talmidim have gone into heresy from the book from studying themselves, then a Rav had to correct them on it.

Yes, it's incredibly complex and difficult and was designed for a specific audience (ironically, the 'perplexed').  As all of Rambam's works, it contains deep brilliant insights beyond the surface level but it takes a keen mind to discover them or piece them together.   Perhaps the surface level was by-design for the 'perplexed' while the deeper understanding is only possible by the very learned (or with the aid of very learned and/or their commentaries) - thus the difficulty if the average yeshiva student (in between) picks it up on his own.    This is my limited knowledge of the subject.

[q_q_]

Its not good to read, unless its shown to a heritic, I hear its not good for a normal person (and it wasn't intended- It was intended for the "Perplexed", so if your not, then dont go into philosophy, simple Emuna a is great).
  Also besides that, some Talmidim have gone into heresy from the book from studying themselves, then a Rav had to correct them on it.

You obviously haven't read it.. And can't give a practical example.

I've read it and mentioned a few very useful things in there, including for example, the paragraphs that clarified parts of the rambam's mishneh torah.

[q_q_]

Its not good to read, unless its shown to a heritic, I hear its not good for a normal person (and it wasn't intended- It was intended for the "Perplexed", so if your not, then dont go into philosophy, simple Emuna a is great).
  Also besides that, some Talmidim have gone into heresy from the book from studying themselves, then a Rav had to correct them on it.

Yes, it's incredibly complex and difficult and was designed for a specific audience (ironically, the 'perplexed').  As all of Rambam's works, it contains deep brilliant insights beyond the surface level but it takes a keen mind to discover them or piece them together.   Perhaps the surface level was by-design for the 'perplexed' while the deeper understanding is only possible by the very learned (or with the aid of very learned and/or their commentaries) - thus the difficulty if the average yeshiva student (in between) picks it up on his own.    This is my limited knowledge of the subject.

Try reading it.. there are certainly parts that are easy to understand and not complex at all. And very important. And fundamental.

I've mentioned what the main controversy with it is..

Another is.. I vaguely recall an odd statement in there.. that all prophecy is through an angel.. Other rabbis take him to task on it. And I think rabbi yaakov emden maintains that the rambam who wrote the brilliant mishneh torah, couldn't have written those lines.
You can always read about the controversies .  And you see what is not controversial when you read it. Incase you can't spot it yourself.

Alot of it is very well proven material.

One shouldn't be afraid to read a book..  The book is not just for the wise and not just for the purplexed aristotelian student.  You can skip over the latter parts . They stick out like a sore thumb. 

Don't be afraid of it for hidden wisdom. It's NOT like the Zohar.  There may be hidden things in thre for the wise, but he didn't intend it just for the wise.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yeah I'm not afraid of it for myself.   I've seen snippets of it here and there but am learning other texts currently.