Which Siddur is your favorite?

[muman613]

I have been wondering what Siddur most JTF members daven with. Personally I am partial to the Artscroll Siddurs. I have both the Weekday and the Shabbat Artscroll Siddurs.

http://www.artscroll.com/Categories/pbk.html

I am interested in what Siddur you use, and why you like it.

Thank you,

[judeanoncapta]

My favorite Siddur is the Siddur Nusach Eretz Yisrael put out by machonshilo.org

I like it because it revives the ancient nusach used in Israel at the time of the Mishna and Talmud Yerushalmi

[q_q_]

I have been wondering what Siddur most JTF members daven with. Personally I am partial to the Artscroll Siddurs. I have both the Weekday and the Shabbat Artscroll Siddurs.

http://www.artscroll.com/Categories/pbk.html

I am interested in what Siddur you use, and why you like it.

Thank you,

this is actually a really great post you've just made.

There is a good artscroll one that is all hebrew, covers weekday and shabbat. It is not bloated, so it doesn't require alot of flicking around.  The structure of the service is earier to see. The text is quite clear too (good for those with bad eyes too), and they do different sizes.

English ones are bloated.. but sometimes it can be good.
There is an artscroll interlinear one, an english word below each hebrew word. That can help learn the hebrew.  Though the structure of the service is harder to see. So you would have to have that firmly in mind.

Most siddurim with english of course have hebrew on one side and english on the other.

In britain, every chief rabbi produces a new version of the singers siddur. Sometimes they just change the formatting and make superficial changes. But  Rabbi Jonthan Sacks - suprisingly - has made some very good improvements. 
Knowing that people nowadays pronounce more Sefaradi than ashkenazi, he has made more visible the vocal shva(bold), and kamatz katan(elongated stem). So people know to pronounce them  (Though I am not sure how trustworthy the shvas are , since if on a word's irst letter it should be vocal, and his are not in bold over there. Apparently his translation is more literal. Though one tends not to read translations during the service.

There is a set of machzorim by Koren. 3 little books that cover Rosh hashana, yom kippur, and the shalosh relagim(pesach shavuot and succot).
Though often on festivals if a person's hebrew is bad they prefer to have english in there, and commentaries. Artscroll provide that.

Both Koren and Artscroll do versions in Ashkenazi and Sephardi

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Soccat David most of the time. (In shul and at home).

 Also Siddur Sefardi Hashalam (with english translation, and also many halachot in each section- I use it often at home).

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

I use the Artscroll And I daven Sfard

[q_q_]

I use the Artscroll And I daven Sfard

are you a chassid then?  nusach sfard, rather than sefardi ?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I use the Artscroll And I daven Sfard

are you a chassid then?  nusach sfard, rather than Sefaradi ?

   I have seen people get that mixed before. A went to an Askenazi place not too long ago. We were looking for Sefardi Siddur to pray with. I found a Sukkat David for myself and my friend found a siddur saying Sefard, he thought it was the same as Sefardi, I explained to him that it is Hassidish Siddur, and not ours.

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

I am not a Chasid but It is the Siddur that I am comfertable with. And it is the one in my shul

[q_q_]

<snip>comfertable with.<snip>

It's good to look things up if you are not sure

COMFORT  ABLE

COMFORTABLE

You could have suspected that anyway.

[muman613]

Hello,

Am I correct in assuming that I am the only Ashkenazi Yid who davens {or at least that has answered this question}. I have many Sephardi friends and am interested in their nusach too. What, in your opinions, is the most noticeable difference in our siddurs?

 

[q_q_]

Hello,

Am I correct in assuming that I am the only Ashkenazi Yid who davens {or at least that has answered this question}.

In your world, with your thinking, I would put you in your own box and say the answer is whatever you want it to be, for you.

I've seen you make so many assumptions , none correct, and you've never acknowledged that they were wrong either.

[muman613]

Hello,

Am I correct in assuming that I am the only Ashkenazi Yid who davens {or at least that has answered this question}.

In your world, with your thinking, I would put you in your own box and say the answer is whatever you want it to be, for you.

I've seen you make so many assumptions , none correct, and you've never acknowledged that they were wrong either.

q_q_,

Why do you constantly go around talking like an arrogant fool? I am not asking you personally because I already know enough about you to say I dont really care. You are not the kind of person I would find likable in the least. It is unfortunate we have to both like JTF.

I have seen you correct people when you yourself make many obvious spelling and grammar errors. I have seen you verbally abuse people for the slightest infraction in your mind. I have tried to ignore your rudeness and arrogance but you seem to enjoy being the way you are.

If you have nothing good to say please don't say it. Your input in this discussion is not welcome.

muman613

PS: Please tell me what 'assumptions' I have made which are 'wrong' {via PM to save the JTF public from the embarrassment} ... I would be glad to explain why I made them..

[q_q_]

q_q_,

Why do you constantly go around talking like an arrogant fool? I am not asking you personally because I already know enough about you to say I dont really care. You are not the kind of person I would find likable in the least. It is unfortunate we have to both like JTF. <snip>

I can't say you are rude because it would be a compliment relative to what you are. It doesn't do justice to how bad you are.   You say the disgusting things that you do, in such a sly way that it goes unnoticed by non thinkers. (And most people are non-thinkers)

In this thread for example, in the earlier post, you suggested that I do not daven(that I do not pray to G-d).  You did it in a VERY sly way of course, so you could always play ignorant.. (you could always say "oh, well I thought you were a sephardi" or something.  Or, I didn't know you were ashkenazi or whatever. Or you could say I didn't mean you when I suggested that of those that responded to me, there were no ashkenazim that daven" ). You leave yourself wiggle-room with your evil rhetoric.
 
I'm always straight with people, I don't play games like this. But you say the sickest things in such a sly way.  And that's just one of your misdemeanors.
Just one of the dishonest tactics.

You were essentially referring to me when you said what you said. So I responded as I did , not to you but to your post, for others. 

[muman613]

q_q_,

Why do you constantly go around talking like an arrogant fool? I am not asking you personally because I already know enough about you to say I dont really care. You are not the kind of person I would find likable in the least. It is unfortunate we have to both like JTF. <snip>

I can't say you are rude because it would be a compliment relative to what you are. It doesn't do justice to how bad you are.   You say the disgusting things that you do, in such a sly way that it goes unnoticed by non thinkers. (And most people are non-thinkers)

In this thread for example, in the earlier post, you suggested that I do not daven(that I do not pray to G-d).  You did it in a VERY sly way of course, so you could always play ignorant.. (you could always say "oh, well I thought you were a Sefaradi" or something.  Or, I didn't know you were ashkenazi or whatever. Or you could say I didn't mean you when I suggested that of those that responded to me, there were no ashkenazim that daven" ). You leave yourself wiggle-room with your evil rhetoric.
 
I'm always straight with people, I don't play games like this. But you say the sickest things in such a sly way.  And that's just one of your misdemeanors.
Just one of the dishonest tactics.

You were essentially referring to me when you said what you said. So I responded as I did , not to you but to your post, for others. 

q_q_,

I did not intend to say what you are saying. I just noticed that most here were saying that they davened in Sefardic nusach. I am sorry if what I said implied that. I swear it was not my intention.

I dont seek any problem with you, nor anyone here. Let me avoid further conflict by saying "I AM SORRY Q_Q_" for not thinking that what I said would be taken the wrong way.

Please reconsider our relationship because I do not seek any enemies and I do not want to go around bearing a grudge.

muman613

[q_q_]

You often say you are sorry. I don't know what it means when you say it.  (I do actually, it's some kind of conflict avoidance mechanism, as you even suggest there)

As far as I am concerned, you live in your own world with your own rules and I leave you in it.

I responded there, because you wrote something against me.

[muman613]

You often say you are sorry. I don't know what it means when you say it.  (I do actually, it's some kind of conflict avoidance mechanism, as you even suggest there)

As far as I am concerned, you live in your own world with your own rules and I leave you in it.

I responded there, because you wrote something against me.

Seriously I did not intend any insult to you. That is what my apology is about. I did not intend any insult and still you think I am trying to insult you. That is what I want to avoid happening. I did not mean any insult to begin with. Please understand that.

muman613

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

I have been wondering what Siddur most JTF members daven with. Personally I am partial to the Artscroll Siddurs. I have both the Weekday and the Shabbat Artscroll Siddurs.

http://www.artscroll.com/Categories/pbk.html

I am interested in what Siddur you use, and why you like it.

Thank you,

I'm a sentimentalist, so I like my late father's (obm), which was published in 1920 by the Hebrew Publishing Co on Delancey St in NYC.

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew

[q_q_]

I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew

I doubt it.

You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.

Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew

I doubt it.

You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.

Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?

Ok, but many Sephardim pronounced it that way before the state was founded also.  Not all Sephardim had the correct formulation.

[judeanoncapta]

I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew

I doubt it.

You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.

Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?

Ok, but many Sefaradim pronounced it that way before the state was founded also.  Not all Sefaradim had the correct formulation.

Actually that is not necessarily true. I know morrocans who tell me that in Morroco and when they first arrived in Israel, they were not only pronouncing an Ayin and Heth, they were also pronouncing a Teth a Ssadi and a Qof.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew

I doubt it.

You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.

Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?

Ok, but many Sefaradim pronounced it that way before the state was founded also.  Not all Sefaradim had the correct formulation.

Actually that is not necessarily true. I know morrocans who tell me that in Morroco and when they first arrived in Israel, they were not only pronouncing an Ayin and Heth, they were also pronouncing a Teth a Ssadi and a Qof.

Really?   So they just adopted the Israeli way?    The Teymanim have kept their own pronunciation no?

[q_q_]

I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew

I doubt it.

You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.

Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?

Ok, but many Sefaradim pronounced it that way before the state was founded also.  Not all Sefaradim had the correct formulation.

What you say there is so ridiculous, that whatever you are trying to say, it's not easy to link your first sentence to the second sentence, and get a sensible result.

You just haven't thought it through.

What do you mean by "That way".  

if you mean  "distinguished", then, your first sentence is blatantly obvious and unnecessary since anybody would agree on that.. You do that -very often- so I am guessing I interpreted you correctly there.  Then in your second sentence, in some attempt to find some hole in what I said, you are actually making a claim along the lines of, the correct Sefaradi pronunciation being to pronounce aleph and ayin the same. And this is the correct formulation.

if you mean, "same", then I would be interested to know which Sefaradim pronounce/pronounced them the same.  Sure, there are many educated in schools that do modern hebrew, and so they just don't know or weren't taught the traditional Sefaradi pronunciation.

Anyhow, having replied regarding your logic. I will now reply with some facts.
Judea explained that the Saadya Gaon (who lived a long time ago) has a accurate tradition on the hebrew language , describing how it should be pronounced. He says every letter should be pronounced distinctly.
The Rema , who is a big authority amongst ashkenazim, actually says that ideally the person that leads te service should be able to distinguish between aleph and ayin.
The Sefaradim generally agree that the yemenites have it most accurate, they distinguish the most, or rather, their tradition distinguishes the most.
There are still issues, sin and samech pronounced the same, the distinction has been lost.

You could claim that nobody knows how it should be pronounced and nobody can prove over another, so anybody's "tradition" or way, is as good as anybody elses.

You should then be clear that you are differing with the Rema and the Saadya Gaon  (and rav yosef kairo , shulchan aruch) if you claim that aleph and ayin are authentically pronounced exactly the same.

You are welcome to. But the idea that some sephardim pronounced them same, and suggesting it is correct to pronounce them the same.. There isn't really any basis of logic or reaosning behind what you say.  If you were some then I suppose you could make that argument.. but you didn't even mention any.

[muman613]

Ok q_q_,

It is good to see you are as prickly with others too... My question to you on this subject is 'What do you think is the 'proper' pronunciation of hebrew?" and "Why?"... It seems you are very judgemental about this. This is also confusing in light of your previous protest about my incorrect assumption... You are Ashkenazi yet you prefer to daven Sefardi. I have heard that it is minhag to daven in the nusach of your father. Is there a reason  you are so fond of Sephardic nusach?

muman613

[q_q_]

Ok q_q_,

It is good to see you are as prickly with others too... My question to you on this subject is 'What do you think is the 'proper' pronunciation of hebrew?" and "Why?"... It seems you are very judgemental about this. This is also confusing in light of your previous protest about my incorrect assumption... You are Ashkenazi yet you prefer to daven Sefaradi. I have heard that it is minhag to daven in the nusach of your father. Is there a reason  you are so fond of Sefardic nusach?

muman613

I didn't say I prefer to daven Sefaradi

And don't confuse pronunciation with nusach.. I don't do Sefaradi pronunciation, or Sefaradi nusach.

infact, the Sefaradim (generally at least) do not distinguish between the Taf with a dot and without a dot.

Ashkenazim do at least distinguish (though the pronunciation is still questionable, since saf/samech/sin, same).

The Teimani-yemenites do. I don't think that they consider their pronunciation Sefaradi.

There is an issue with their pronunciation too, they do a Jimmel, which breaks a/the pattern of other soft/hard letters.

It is difficult changing a pronunciation.. my interest is largely intellectual, and that is flawed.

I do respect what judea is doing, which is learning with rabbi bar hayyim , who has researched what is most likely the most accurate way to pronounce hebrew correctly.
 
He goes by the Saadya Gaon for consonants. I'm not sure about what his vowels are based on. And he hasn't gone into why in particular the saadya gaon's tradition is so strong..

I am also not familiar with all his arguments, but if you are interested, here are the main ones. and how he pronounces the letters.

http://www.archive.org/details/TrueHebrewPronounciation
(there is a misspelling, permanent in the URL! pronunciation is the correct spelling)