Which Siddur is your favorite?

[muman613]

<snip>
http://www.archive.org/details/TrueHebrewPronounciation
(there is a misspelling, permanent in the URL! pronunciation is the correct spelling)

Thank you...

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew

I doubt it.

You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.

Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?

I don't live in Israel. I am Ashkanazi and I do speak a Sefardic brand of Hebrew. It is Beit Kennesit not Bes. It is Shabbat not Shabbos. It is Sukkot not Sukkos. When I go up to the Torah you I don't sound like Ashkansi.

[q_q_]

I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew

I doubt it.

You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.

Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?

I don't live in Israel. I am Ashkanazi and I do speak a Sefardic brand of Hebrew. It is Beit Kennesit not Bes. It is Shabbat not Shabbos. It is Sukkot not Sukkos. When I go up to the Torah you I don't sound like Ashkansi.

you don't dinstinguish.
but you don't want to admit it.

You avoided the question for a reason. 

what you don't want to admit is that you are not pronouncing it sephardi either.

You are probably pronouncing it how you were taught.

ASHKEFARDI

And the way you speak, it looks like you don't have much respect for the ashkenazi tradition either.  Saying things like *IT IS SHABBAT NOT SHABBOS*. 

You act like you are unique here. Don't you know,

Shabbat is really how MOST modern orthodox jews pronounce it. It's the way it is taught in modern orthodox schools, and it is very difficult to change. You are just following that.

It's state of israel pronunciation. A man made thing.

Why is state of israel pronunciation the way it is? Well, there is an obvious answer, (I don't know if it can be proven wrong)..
The secular zionist founders (ashkenazim) wanted to turn their backs on their roots.  So they picked the sephardi pronunciation, but they weren't serious enough to take on some details, so they simplified it, made it less sephardi.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew

I doubt it.

You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.

Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?

Ok, but many Sefaradim pronounced it that way before the state was founded also.  Not all Sefaradim had the correct formulation.

What you say there is so ridiculous, that whatever you are trying to say, it's not easy to link your first sentence to the second sentence, and get a sensible result.

You just haven't thought it through.

What do you mean by "That way".  

if you mean  "distinguished", then, your first sentence is blatantly obvious and unnecessary since anybody would agree on that.. You do that -very often- so I am guessing I interpreted you correctly there.  Then in your second sentence, in some attempt to find some hole in what I said, you are actually making a claim along the lines of, the correct Sefaradi pronunciation being to pronounce aleph and ayin the same. And this is the correct formulation.

if you mean, "same", then I would be interested to know which Sefaradim pronounce/pronounced them the same.  Sure, there are many educated in schools that do modern hebrew, and so they just don't know or weren't taught the traditional Sefaradi pronunciation.

Anyhow, having replied regarding your logic. I will now reply with some facts.
Judea explained that the Saadya Gaon (who lived a long time ago) has a accurate tradition on the hebrew language , describing how it should be pronounced. He says every letter should be pronounced distinctly.
The Rema , who is a big authority amongst ashkenazim, actually says that ideally the person that leads te service should be able to distinguish between aleph and ayin.
The Sefaradim generally agree that the yemenites have it most accurate, they distinguish the most, or rather, their tradition distinguishes the most.
There are still issues, sin and samech pronounced the same, the distinction has been lost.

You could claim that nobody knows how it should be pronounced and nobody can prove over another, so anybody's "tradition" or way, is as good as anybody elses.

You should then be clear that you are differing with the Rema and the Saadya Gaon  (and rav yosef kairo , shulchan aruch) if you claim that aleph and ayin are authentically pronounced exactly the same.

You are welcome to. But the idea that some Sefaradim pronounced them same, and suggesting it is correct to pronounce them the same.. There isn't really any basis of logic or reaosning behind what you say.  If you were some then I suppose you could make that argument.. but you didn't even mention any.

Wow qq, ease up.  You're responding here like a snappy 12 year old girl lashing out at her parents.   Not to mention your logic is way off.    Judeanoncapta clearly understood what I was saying and answered me quite appropriately.  I accepted his input/correction.

[judeanoncapta]

I have heard that it is minhag to daven in the nusach of your father.

muman613

Incorrect.

The only minhagh with halachic force is one that is

A) A practice that is done by all of the Jews in the city where you live and....

B) One that has something to do with Issur and Heter.  ie. Not eating meat slaughtered in a certain way or not doing something on Shabbath that may or may not lead to desecration of Shabbath

Therefore one is not required to pray whatever nusach his father prayed because all Jews in his city do not pray the same nusach and because it has nothing to do with Issur and Heter. No nusach is more Assur or Mutar than the other.

Thank you.

[judeanoncapta]

I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew

I doubt it.

You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.

Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?

Ok, but many Sefaradim pronounced it that way before the state was founded also.  Not all Sefaradim had the correct formulation.

Actually that is not necessarily true. I know morrocans who tell me that in Morroco and when they first arrived in Israel, they were not only pronouncing an Ayin and Heth, they were also pronouncing a Teth a Ssadi and a Qof.

Really?   So they just adopted the Israeli way?    The Teymanim have kept their own pronunciation no?

They apparently had a stronger sense of identity than other Mizrachi Jews.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Interesting.

[muman613]

I have heard that it is minhag to daven in the nusach of your father.

muman613

Incorrect.

The only minhagh with halachic force is one that is

A) A practice that is done by all of the Jews in the city where you live and....

B) One that has something to do with Issur and Heter.  ie. Not eating meat slaughtered in a certain way or not doing something on Shabbath that may or may not lead to desecration of Shabbath

Therefore one is not required to pray whatever nusach his father prayed because all Jews in his city do not pray the same nusach and because it has nothing to do with Issur and Heter. No nusach is more Assur or Mutar than the other.

Thank you.

Shalom Judeanoncapita,

Then I am confused. When I joined my Orthodox minyan, which is majority Ashkenaz, I was asked which nusach my family davened. I was brought up in Ashkenazi nusach so when I started observing I picked up the Ashkenaz siddur. I am not sure what your previous message advises regarding which nusach to daven with.

Are you saying that if the majority of the community you are in currently davens with one nusach you should also daven with that nusach?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It appears that he is saying it is your personal choice as to which nusach you daven, if there is not a universal practice to use one in particular in your particular city wherever you live.

[muman613]

Hello,

I just came across the Ask the Rabbi section of Yeshiva.org @ http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/ and this very question about nusach came up... Here are three of the relevant answers:

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?cat=297


Question:
I am Halachically considered Sefardic because my father is Sefardic (although my mother is not). I grew up in Ashkenazic schools and always davened Ashkenazic. Yet for Rosh Hashana (and sometimes Yom Kippur) my family goes away to a Sefardic shul and I daven in the Sefardic nussach. Is this proper to switch back and forth?

Answer:
It is very important that one should say prayers one is used to. Therefore, switching Nusach is not advisable. You should try to daven regularly with your Nusach, unless the davening is completely different in which case you can switch.

Rabbi Yitzchak Grinblat


Question:
I have always prayed nossach ’sfard’ but I have been living in London for 4 years now and in most of the places they pray nossach ’askenaz’ for now I plan to stay here. I am reluctant to switch to nossach ’askenaz’ as tradition is important to me on the other hand it does not make sense to pray in the different nossach than everybody. Should I switch? Thanks

Answer:
It is of great importance you keep your Nussach. The Jewish nation has survived generations by keeping family traditions. Therefore, when praying you should use your Nussach, unless you are a Chazzan or answering communal prayers such as Kedusha or Tahcanun.

Rabbi Yosef Weitzen


Question:
Before I became observant I davened in a non orthodox shul and davened Nusach Ashkenaz. For the past few years I have been going to a Chabad shul and have davened Nusach Ari. I now realize that Chabad is not for me. Can I switch back to Nusach Ashkenaz with or without a Hatarat Nedarim?

Answer:
The answer is complicated. As a rule, if by your father's or grandfather's the Nusach was Ashkenaz while davening, there is no doubt you can daven Nusach Ashkeanz.
If they used to daven Sfarad (Chassidic), it is better you continue davening in that Nusach. In any case if you daven in a shul that is Nusach Ashkenaz, you may continue davening Ashkenaz.
If your shul is Sfarad, and your family custom is Sfarad, and you want to switch to Ashkenaz, you should do Hatarat Nedarim.

Rabbi Eliezer Melamed

[q_q_]

certainly most rabbis would say follow the customs of your father.

I would probably say do so unless you have a very good reason to do otherwise.

these rabbis that say follow the custom of your father regardless, they usually don't have good sources.

for example, rabbi bar hayyim taught something along the lines of.. If you go to another place, then you can or should let the customs from the old place drop off like rain off a raincoat.  But if you are visiting, then you can/should keep the old ones.  I don't recall whether he said can/should.


What Judea is saying is taught by rabbi bar hayyim, it's controversial in our times, but it's taking a logical first principles approach, from the talmud.

I would draw a distinction  between nusach and pronunciation.

I don't know if pronunciation is considered a "custom". Since there really is an original true pronunciation. Many customs are probably new things.
If it is a custom, then you may still not be bound by the way you pronounce it, because there is such thing as a minhag based on a mistake..
So, if you think your pronunciation is a mistake, then I suppose you are not bound by it..
many would say that you can't prove that a certain tradition is mistaken in a pronunciation of something, and that another pronunciation is the original. Still, I suppose one may think a pronunciation e.g. of a letter, is mistaken, and find one more likely to be accurate.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Hello,

I just came across the Ask the Rabbi section of Yeshiva.org @ http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/ and this very question about nusach came up... Here are three of the relevant answers:

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?cat=297

I find it interesting that they don't cite any sources.   For the purposes of our discussion here, that is simply not sufficient for an answer on this issue.   Rav Bar Hayim did a recent shiur on this very topic, and it was excellent, and quite contrary to what the yeshiva.org rabbis are saying here.   He brought up a common mistake that seems to be utilized as well in the answers here, but of course it's impossible for us to know whether or not they are because they don't even provide sources for their answers.

[q_q_]

Hello,

I just came across the Ask the Rabbi section of Yeshiva.org @ http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/ and this very question about nusach came up... Here are three of the relevant answers:

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?cat=297

I find it interesting that they don't cite any sources.   For the purposes of our discussion here, that is simply not sufficient for an answer on this issue.   Rav Bar Hayim did a recent shiur on this very topic, and it was excellent, and quite contrary to what the yeshiva.org rabbis are saying here.   He brought up a common mistake that seems to be utilized as well in the answers here, but of course it's impossible for us to know whether or not they are because they don't even provide sources for their answers.

Rabbi bar hayyim's big concern is the jewish people, living in israel, should not be holding onto customs from all these other countries, the jewish people should be more united.
And if you move from one place to another, permanently, then your old customs (can? or should?) drop off like rain off a raincoat, and you adopt those of your new locality.   And he sees this as important psychologically too.

If you are in one place though, then, I doubt you can just switch customs like that.   There is the concept of customs being as strong as law. I don't know if that has a basis, but certainly customs have to be kept.
And i'm sure rabbi bar hayyim would think it psychologically wrong to (to use an extreme case) one day be sephardi, the next day ashkenazi, the next day your own thing , e.t.c.

In their defence, in a nutshell. Customs are strong, (strong as law even). And the customs people -have-  or first have, are typically the ones from their father.

If you are moving permanently somewhere and you've moved. Then you have a good reason to change or consider changing customs.   Otherwise, probably not.    If one is bold then one might amend their pronunciation, reasoning that there is an incorrect minhag.  One is not bound by a mistaken minhag.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

By changing nusach, you are not "becoming Ashkenazi" or "being Sephardi."  Rav Bar Hayim actually said that based on his halachic interpretation one could daven a different nusach every day if he wanted to (he did say "I don't know why someone would" and he imagines it would be very impractical), but technically one could do any nusach they want on any given day if they really wanted to constantly switch it up.   This is true for Israel.   The passage you (and those who defend 'following the custom of your fathers') cite (from the Gemara) actually has nothing to do with tefillah or nusach, and it doesn't say what people interpret it to say, even if it COULD be extended to nusach, which logically it doesn't work that way anyway.  But that sugya is about something entirely different as well.

  I'm not sure about other places where there may be a custom attached to the location, but it seems to me that also outside of Israel there aren't many places where there is a "universal" custom to a given place.   For instance, Brooklyn NY, there are people davening ashkenazi, sephardi, nusach safarad, etc, all imported from other places.   There is no "Brooklyn nusach" that I'm aware of.   Tzvi can correct me if I'm misinterpreting Rav Bar Hayim as he applies to locations outside Israel, but this appeared to me what he was saying.   

I have Rav Bar Hayim's source sheet, but it was in Hebrew, so it would take me a while to pore over it to be able to quote it directly here and explain it in depth with confidence.   Also would take some time to review my notes from the shiur.     Perhaps I will do this, bli neder.