Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
Sefardic Panther:
I recently had the honor of meeting a Kabbalist gadol from Tzfat. He of course knows that Rashbi wrote the Zohar 2000 years ago. He told me that –
Moshe De Leon’s wife had already sold the original manuscript of the Zohar when the rich man came looking to buy it. She was so ashamed that she said her husband was the real author (the rich man was in fact Hakam Yitzhak of Akko, the biggest proponent of the Zohar’s authenticity)
There are some Spanish words in the Zohar because the Zohar was finally redacted in the Amoraim times when Spain and Spanish was known.
The reference to the crusades was prophecy.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 01, 2008, 10:43:38 AM ---I recently had the honor of meeting a Kabbalist gadol from Tzfat. He of course knows that Rashbi wrote the Zohar 2000 years ago. He told me that –
Moshe De Leon’s wife had already sold the original manuscript of the Zohar when the rich man came looking to buy it. She was so ashamed that she said her husband was the real author (the rich man was in fact Hakam Yitzhak of Akko, the biggest proponent of the Zohar’s authenticity)
--- End quote ---
he may be sure himself, but wrong!
Just because somebody is an expert mystic and saintly person and expert in halacha, doesn't mean that their logic is completely reliable.
He has probably surrounded since his youth, by a community, with gedolim, that agree with this idea anyway.
It's interesting that he believes that de leon's wife said it was written by her husband. I wander if he has any evidence that she did say that and it's not just a rumour? No doubt many kabbalists would say it was just a vicious rumour propagated by opponents of the zohar.
I would bet that he would be happy to believe that it's a rumour, but incase itis true, he has that extra bit to the story to tag on. It's chinese whispers, and anywhere along the line there are big motives for people to juice up the story, or for somebody to have made it up from the start. It's not like the Tenach that was written and accepted by the jewish nation at that time, recording miraculous events that happened to them.
Rav Kudari was supposed to have met moshiach, this was a story that circulated in Rav Kudari's time. I'm sure he was asked about it.
He said moshiach is going around with a star of david that he does magic with, and he met him. And he will come(reveal himself?) after the sharon govt. And Sharon will be the last PM.
Here is an article with some of that
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/89850
in 2005
The magen dovid is a mystical view of moshiach, it clearly got less and less believable as time went on, then Rav Kudari died, and we have Olmert.
Here's another gadol who no doubt people trusted and still trust..
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2005/06/gerrer_rebbe_sh.html
Gerrer Rebbe Shlit"a: "Moshiach this year, or by the end of next year."
that was in 2005
So there are many examples of Gedolim being wrong.
A classic was the rabbis - many gedolim no doubt - that said stay in poland it'll be ok.
I hear stories of rabbis predicting things , like the vilna gaon the zohar and the towers. The Chafetz chaim and the holocaust. The L rebbe and the gulf war. And many more that are stories or rumours told.
History teaches us to be skeptical over messianic claims...
and in recent times we see good reason to be skeptical over mystical claims. Some that just didn't happen (the erevmoshiach site, had lots of kabbalists analysing prophesies of children. The site was taken down! reason they gave was that kabbalists ordered that it be taken down since it revealed too much).
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 01, 2008, 10:43:38 AM ---There are some Spanish words in the Zohar because the Zohar was finally redacted in the Amoraim times when Spain and Spanish was known.
The reference to the crusades was prophecy.
--- End quote ---
the burden of proof should really be in showing that the Zohar is legit..
But , as far as showing it not to be legit - tricky for a mystical work, since it discusses things we can't see.
Whatever the arguments against the zohar are.. You would have to look at them properly. Seriously. The information doesn't really seem to be available on the internet. Though there may be the odd brief article her and there..
Even the Zohar itself is not online. It doesn't really make sense to have a discussion about specific words used in the zohar when we don't even have it in front of us.
Really the whole approach is flawed.. and intellectually lazy.
(one also needs to be fluent in hebrew to study the zohar and arguments anyway, e.g. those of rabbi emden..)
here is a defence article..interesting, it also mentions
http://www.avakesh.com/2007/05/in_honor_of_lag.html
A recent compilation of books defending the authenticity of the Zohar is "Magen V'Tzina", republished recently by Frank in Jerusalem, includes the following works: Magen V'Tzina by R. Isaac Chaver, Kadmus Sefer HaZohar by Radal, and Zohar Harakia by R. Yerucham Lainer.
But.. You would have to look at the arguments -against- properly. first.
Apparently Rabbi Yaakov Emden is partly against, partly for
http://www.jewishblogging.com/blog.php?bid=8545
is work is
Mitpachat Sefarim by R Yaakov Emden
muman613:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 01, 2008, 03:07:58 PM ---<snip>
--- End quote ---
So, what do you believe? Either way you have stated nothing new in your posting here. You argue against and you argue for... Net effect is that you have said almost nothing...
q_q_:
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 01, 2008, 03:23:40 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 01, 2008, 03:07:58 PM ---<snip>
--- End quote ---
So, what do you believe? Either way you have stated nothing new in your posting here. You argue against and you argue for... Net effect is that you have said almost nothing...
--- End quote ---
It's because you are not logical.
What you missed was that the claim was
"The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi"
And an argument was given. The main one being that a kabbalist said so, so it is.
I gave examples against that argument.
Great rabbis, kabbalists too, predicting things, and being wrong.
I said that to really have a proper discussion one would have to have at least read the Zohar!!! And traditional arguments against e.g. by rabbi yaakov emden , which is in hebrew.. None of this is on the internet.
I have not read the Zohar, neither has He, neither have You. And thus you , and even I, cannot make a strong claim one way or the other.
But I can counter a flimsy argument by somebody that hasn't read it, a claim that it was definitely written by Rashbi because a kabbalist said so.
I think Sefardic panther's claim would be less flimsy if he said the ARIZAL said so!! He was a kabbalist's kabbalist.. and his judgement and mystical claims are revered by most jews. Indeed, most jews do accept the Zohar.
Still though, it's just about trusting great rabbis when even they don't have strong material evidence.
It's not ZERO, to counter or point problems out, in a claim that is made.
A logical person would instinctively understand that.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
LOL, he went to a kabbalist and he confirmed for him that yes the Zohar was written by Shimon Bar Yochai. Great, that really clears up the matter. </sarcasm>
What did you really expect to happen? Anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise. We have already quoted in this forum indirectly what Rav Moshe Feinstein said about it, and we know that Rabbi Yaakov Emden said it was a forgery. If Rabbi Yaakov Emdem was still alive and you could go to him, he would "confirm" for you that it was NOT written by Shimon Bar Yochai. And then you would come to this forum and report it to us that it really was made by Moshe De Leon? LOL.
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