Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
"Moshe De Leon’s wife had already sold the original manuscript of the Zohar when the rich man came looking to buy it. She was so ashamed that she said her husband was the real author "
What does this even mean? Why would she be ashamed for selling the original manuscript? What's so bad about that? Obviously the Hakam/rich man was arriving in order to inquire about it and PURCHASE IT! So what was to be embarrassed about? He obviously found buying/selling it perfectly acceptable since according to this story he wanted to do so himself. Secondly, if she was embarrassed, what is that reason to state that her husband was the author? This somehow relieves her embarrassment for the "evil deed" of selling it.... in front of someone else who he himself wanted to buy it?
Thirdly, if she already sold the "original manuscript," then what did she sell to the Hakam, and what happened to the "real" Zohar? To whom did she sell the original, what happened to it in his/her hands, and where did it end up?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 01, 2008, 10:43:38 AM ---
There are some Spanish words in the Zohar because the Zohar was finally redacted in the Amoraim times when Spain and Spanish was known.
--- End quote ---
It was written by Rashbi but only redacted in the times of the Amoraim? Since when is this what kabbalists believe? And even if that was the case, that contradicts what Moshe De Leon claimed and what even you and the kabbalist here claim. That means it was NOT written by Shimon Bar Yochai, if it was REDACTED IN A LATER PERIOD BY DIFFERENT PEOPLE!
muman613:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 01, 2008, 03:38:24 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 01, 2008, 03:23:40 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 01, 2008, 03:07:58 PM ---<snip>
--- End quote ---
So, what do you believe? Either way you have stated nothing new in your posting here. You argue against and you argue for... Net effect is that you have said almost nothing...
--- End quote ---
It's because you are not logical.
What you missed was that the claim was
"The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi"
And an argument was given. The main one being that a kabbalist said so, so it is.
I gave examples against that argument.
Great rabbis, kabbalists too, predicting things, and being wrong.
I said that to really have a proper discussion one would have to have at least read the Zohar!!! And traditional arguments against e.g. by rabbi yaakov emden , which is in hebrew.. None of this is on the internet.
I have not read the Zohar, neither has He, neither have You. And thus you , and even I, cannot make a strong claim one way or the other.
But I can counter a flimsy argument by somebody that hasn't read it, a claim that it was definitely written by Rashbi because a kabbalist said so.
I think Sefardic panther's claim would be less flimsy if he said the ARIZAL said so!! He was a kabbalist's kabbalist.. and his judgement and mystical claims are revered by most jews. Indeed, most jews do accept the Zohar.
Still though, it's just about trusting great rabbis when even they don't have strong material evidence.
It's not ZERO, to counter or point problems out, in a claim that is made.
A logical person would instinctively understand that.
--- End quote ---
My point to you was that you have not shed any new light on the topic. To provide both pro and con arguments in your posts you did not advance the discussion. You stated several items which we already discussed in a previous thread.
What you may be trying to say, in a convoluted, q_q kind of way, is that nobody here can say with any authority who wrote the Zohar. I am willing to accept that... But it is not very clear in your previous post. This is why I asked what you believe.
You seem to be the one with a problem with logic. Presenting both pro and con arguments doesnt accomplish much but provide you with a platform to bloviate.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 01, 2008, 04:02:47 PM ---LOL, he went to a kabbalist and he confirmed for him that yes the Zohar was written by Shimon Bar Yochai. Great, that really clears up the matter. </sarcasm>
What did you really expect to happen? Anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise. We have already quoted in this forum indirectly what Rav Moshe Feinstein said about it, and we know that Rabbi Yaakov Emden said it was a forgery. If Rabbi Yaakov Emdem was still alive and you could go to him, he would "confirm" for you that it was NOT written by Shimon Bar Yochai. And then you would come to this forum and report it to us that it really was made by Moshe De Leon? LOL.
--- End quote ---
When you go to the extreme that you go to,
e.g. you said "anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise. "
Even claiming the zohar is a forgery.
it really calls into question the sanity or honesty of many great rabbis.
The Arizal, since he claimed heavenly teachers, and accepted the Zohar.
The Vilna Gaon claimed a heavenly teacher, i'm sure that if the Zohar was a forgery, his heavenly teacher would have told him.
Similarly with the Baal Shem Tov ( an easier target 'cos more of a minority of the O community!)
It doesn't call them into question when they state x, give their reasons and you agree.. But one might worry about the kabbalistic aspects.. Or parts where one doesn't understand their reasons , the VG is known to be quite terse.
If one is that skeptical, then one is calling into question alot more than the Zohar. And if you look at groups that are against the Zohar
Rabbi Kapach/Kafah/Qafah/KAPACH/Qafi (however you spell or pronounce it), the Dor Deah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosef_Qafih
They are maimonidean, they would reject all kabbalah post talmud, including the RAMBAN. Of course, they are odd to just follow one rabbi (or present themselves as if they do "maimonidean")
I really don't think it's that clever or that consistent even, to be that skeptical..
Rav Yosef Kairo claimed to have a heavenly teacher. (that doesn't necessarily affect most of his halachic reasoning).
I have read stories of how he and arizal were very close. No doubt he was very much a mystic, and would have accepted the Zohar..
I think it's valid to make a claim against all kabbalah in general.. even criticising whoever, whatever Gadol. But you are talking about halachic experts here too.
Experts whome you will study in yeshiva..
Rav Yosef Kairo is also studied by Maimonideans too, they are often very knowledgeable, and reject certain decisions if they differ with the RAMBAM or are affected by kabbalah..
The way you write, it's as if anybody that accepts the Zohar will believe any claim for its truth.. And thus, you are suggesting that the Arizal is a fool.. or Rav Yosef Kairo is a fool. You would be studying Rav Yosef Kairo's Shulchan Aruch.. in yeshiva, since it's a major work. I don't think you are writing under the understanding that when you attack the zohar you are attacking alot more than that.. And the way you put it, was like anybody that accepts that the zohar was written by Rashbi, is a fool. (because as you said, they would believe any claim that says it is by him)
muman613:
So you support and you oppose the Zohar. This is a very good position to be in, because either way you will be able to say that you are right... That is extemely 'logical'... <sarc>
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