Author Topic: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi  (Read 24468 times)

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Offline Sefardic Panther

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The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« on: December 01, 2008, 10:43:38 AM »
I recently had the honor of meeting a Kabbalist gadol from Tzfat. He of course knows that Rashbi wrote the Zohar 2000 years ago. He told me that –
 
Moshe De Leon’s wife had already sold the original manuscript of the Zohar when the rich man came looking to buy it. She was so ashamed that she said her husband was the real author (the rich man was in fact Hakam Yitzhak of Akko, the biggest proponent of the Zohar’s authenticity)   

There are some Spanish words in the Zohar because the Zohar was finally redacted in the Amoraim times when Spain and Spanish was known.

The reference to the crusades was prophecy.

"Let there be a holocaust on the anti-semites!!!" - Rabbi Mordechai Friedman Shlita

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Offline q_q_

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2008, 03:07:58 PM »
I recently had the honor of meeting a Kabbalist gadol from Tzfat. He of course knows that Rashbi wrote the Zohar 2000 years ago. He told me that –

Moshe De Leon’s wife had already sold the original manuscript of the Zohar when the rich man came looking to buy it. She was so ashamed that she said her husband was the real author (the rich man was in fact Hakam Yitzhak of Akko, the biggest proponent of the Zohar’s authenticity)   

he may be sure himself, but wrong!

Just because somebody is an expert mystic and saintly person and expert in halacha, doesn't mean that their logic is completely reliable.

He has probably surrounded since his youth, by a community, with gedolim, that agree with this idea anyway.
 
It's interesting that he believes that de leon's wife said it was written by her husband.  I wander if he has any evidence that she did say that and it's not just a rumour? No doubt many kabbalists would say it was just a vicious rumour propagated by opponents of the zohar.
I would bet that he would be happy to believe that it's a rumour, but incase itis true, he has that extra bit to the story to tag on.  It's chinese whispers, and anywhere along the line there are big motives for people to juice up the story, or for somebody to have made it up from the start. It's not like the Tenach that was written and accepted by the jewish nation at that time, recording miraculous events that happened to them.

Rav Kudari was supposed to have met moshiach, this was a story that circulated in Rav Kudari's time.  I'm sure he was asked about it.
He said moshiach is going around with a star of david that he does magic with, and he met him.  And he will come(reveal himself?) after the sharon govt.  And Sharon will be the last PM.
Here is an article with some of that
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/89850
in 2005

The magen dovid is a mystical view of moshiach, it clearly got less and  less believable as time went on, then Rav Kudari died, and we have Olmert.

Here's another gadol who no doubt people trusted and still trust..
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2005/06/gerrer_rebbe_sh.html
Gerrer Rebbe Shlit"a: "Moshiach this year, or by the end of next year."
that was in 2005

So there are many examples of Gedolim being wrong.

A classic was the rabbis  - many gedolim no doubt - that said stay in poland it'll be ok.

I hear stories of rabbis predicting things , like the vilna gaon the zohar and the towers.  The Chafetz chaim and the holocaust. The L rebbe and the gulf war. And many more that are stories or rumours told.

History teaches us to be skeptical over messianic claims...
and in recent times we see good reason to be skeptical over mystical claims. Some that just didn't happen (the erevmoshiach site, had lots of kabbalists analysing prophesies of children. The site was taken down! reason they gave was that kabbalists ordered that it be taken down since it revealed too much). 


There are some Spanish words in the Zohar because the Zohar was finally redacted in the Amoraim times when Spain and Spanish was known.
The reference to the crusades was prophecy.

the burden of proof should really be in showing that the Zohar is legit..

But , as far as showing it not to be legit - tricky for a mystical work, since it discusses things we can't see.

Whatever the arguments against the zohar are.. You would have to look at them properly. Seriously.  The information doesn't really seem to be available on the internet. Though there may be the odd brief article her and there..

Even the Zohar itself is not online. It doesn't really make sense to have a discussion about specific words used in the zohar when we don't even have it in front of us.

Really the whole approach is flawed.. and intellectually lazy.
(one also needs to be fluent in hebrew to study the zohar and arguments anyway, e.g. those of rabbi emden..)

here is a defence article..interesting, it also mentions
http://www.avakesh.com/2007/05/in_honor_of_lag.html
 A recent compilation of books defending the authenticity of the Zohar is "Magen V'Tzina", republished recently by Frank in Jerusalem, includes the following works: Magen V'Tzina by R. Isaac Chaver, Kadmus Sefer HaZohar by Radal, and Zohar Harakia by R. Yerucham Lainer.


But.. You would have to look at the arguments -against- properly. first.

Apparently Rabbi Yaakov Emden is partly against, partly for
http://www.jewishblogging.com/blog.php?bid=8545
is work is
Mitpachat Sefarim by R Yaakov Emden




Offline muman613

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2008, 03:23:40 PM »
<snip>


So, what do you believe? Either way you have stated nothing new in your posting here. You argue against and you argue for... Net effect is that you have said almost nothing...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2008, 03:38:24 PM »
<snip>


So, what do you believe? Either way you have stated nothing new in your posting here. You argue against and you argue for... Net effect is that you have said almost nothing...



It's because you are not logical.

What you missed was that the claim was

"The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi"
And an argument was given. The main one being that a kabbalist said so, so it is.

I gave examples against that argument.

Great rabbis, kabbalists too, predicting things, and being wrong.

I said that to really have a proper discussion one would have to have at least read the Zohar!!! And traditional arguments against e.g. by rabbi yaakov emden , which is in hebrew..  None of this is on the internet.

I have not read the Zohar, neither has He, neither have You. And thus you , and even I, cannot make a strong claim one way or the other.
But I can counter a flimsy argument by somebody that hasn't read it, a claim that it was definitely written by Rashbi because a kabbalist said so.

I think Sefardic panther's claim would be less flimsy if he said the ARIZAL said so!!  He was a kabbalist's kabbalist..  and his judgement and mystical claims are revered by most jews. Indeed, most jews do accept the Zohar.
Still though, it's just about trusting great rabbis when even they don't have strong material evidence.

It's not ZERO, to counter or point problems out, in a claim that is made.

A logical person would instinctively understand that.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2008, 04:02:47 PM »
LOL, he went to a kabbalist and he confirmed for him that yes the Zohar was written by Shimon Bar Yochai.   Great, that really clears up the matter.   </sarcasm>

What did you really expect to happen?   Anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise.    We have already quoted in this forum indirectly what Rav Moshe Feinstein said about it, and we know that Rabbi Yaakov Emden said it was a forgery.     If Rabbi Yaakov Emdem was still alive and you could go to him, he would "confirm" for you that it was NOT written by Shimon Bar Yochai.   And then you would come to this forum and report it to us that it really was made by Moshe De Leon?    LOL.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 04:10:31 PM »
"Moshe De Leon’s wife had already sold the original manuscript of the Zohar when the rich man came looking to buy it. She was so ashamed that she said her husband was the real author "

What does this even mean?   Why would she be ashamed for selling the original manuscript?  What's so bad about that?   Obviously the Hakam/rich man was arriving in order to inquire about it and PURCHASE IT!   So what was to be embarrassed about?   He obviously found buying/selling it perfectly acceptable since according to this story he wanted to do so himself.   Secondly, if she was embarrassed, what is that reason to state that her husband was the author?   This somehow relieves her embarrassment for the "evil deed" of selling it.... in front of someone else who he himself wanted to buy it?   

Thirdly, if she already sold the "original manuscript," then what did she sell to the Hakam, and what happened to the "real" Zohar?   To whom did she sell the original, what happened to it in his/her hands, and where did it end up?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 04:12:22 PM »

There are some Spanish words in the Zohar because the Zohar was finally redacted in the Amoraim times when Spain and Spanish was known.


It was written by Rashbi but only redacted in the times of the Amoraim?   Since when is this what kabbalists believe?  And even if that was the case, that contradicts what Moshe  De Leon claimed and what even you and the kabbalist here claim.   That means it was NOT written by Shimon Bar Yochai, if it was REDACTED IN A LATER PERIOD BY DIFFERENT PEOPLE!

Offline muman613

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 04:25:24 PM »
<snip>


So, what do you believe? Either way you have stated nothing new in your posting here. You argue against and you argue for... Net effect is that you have said almost nothing...



It's because you are not logical.

What you missed was that the claim was

"The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi"
And an argument was given. The main one being that a kabbalist said so, so it is.

I gave examples against that argument.

Great rabbis, kabbalists too, predicting things, and being wrong.

I said that to really have a proper discussion one would have to have at least read the Zohar!!! And traditional arguments against e.g. by rabbi yaakov emden , which is in hebrew..  None of this is on the internet.

I have not read the Zohar, neither has He, neither have You. And thus you , and even I, cannot make a strong claim one way or the other.
But I can counter a flimsy argument by somebody that hasn't read it, a claim that it was definitely written by Rashbi because a kabbalist said so.

I think Sefardic panther's claim would be less flimsy if he said the ARIZAL said so!!  He was a kabbalist's kabbalist..  and his judgement and mystical claims are revered by most jews. Indeed, most jews do accept the Zohar.
Still though, it's just about trusting great rabbis when even they don't have strong material evidence.

It's not ZERO, to counter or point problems out, in a claim that is made.

A logical person would instinctively understand that.

My point to you was that you have not shed any new light on the topic. To provide both pro and con arguments in your posts you did not advance the discussion. You stated several items which we already discussed in a previous thread.

What you may be trying to say, in a convoluted, q_q kind of way, is that nobody here can say with any authority who wrote the Zohar. I am willing to accept that... But it is not very clear in your previous post. This is why I asked what you believe.

You seem to be the one with a problem with logic. Presenting both pro and con arguments doesnt accomplish much but provide you with a platform to bloviate.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 04:44:15 PM »
LOL, he went to a kabbalist and he confirmed for him that yes the Zohar was written by Shimon Bar Yochai.   Great, that really clears up the matter.   </sarcasm>

What did you really expect to happen?   Anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise.    We have already quoted in this forum indirectly what Rav Moshe Feinstein said about it, and we know that Rabbi Yaakov Emden said it was a forgery.     If Rabbi Yaakov Emdem was still alive and you could go to him, he would "confirm" for you that it was NOT written by Shimon Bar Yochai.   And then you would come to this forum and report it to us that it really was made by Moshe De Leon?    LOL.

When you go to the extreme that you go to,
e.g. you said "anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise.  "

Even claiming the zohar is a forgery.

it really calls into question the sanity or honesty of many great rabbis.
The Arizal, since he claimed heavenly teachers, and accepted the Zohar.
The Vilna Gaon claimed a heavenly teacher, i'm sure that if the Zohar was a forgery, his heavenly teacher would have told him.
Similarly with the Baal Shem Tov ( an easier target 'cos more of a minority of the O community!)

It doesn't call them into question when they state x, give their reasons and you agree.. But one might worry about the kabbalistic aspects.. Or parts where one doesn't understand their reasons , the VG is known to be quite terse.

If one is that skeptical, then one is calling into question alot more than the Zohar. And if you look at groups that are against the Zohar
Rabbi  Kapach/Kafah/Qafah/KAPACH/Qafi (however you spell or pronounce it), the Dor Deah,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosef_Qafih
They are maimonidean, they would reject all kabbalah post talmud, including the RAMBAN.  Of course, they are odd to just follow one rabbi (or present themselves as if they do "maimonidean")

I really don't think it's that clever or that consistent even, to be that skeptical..

Rav Yosef Kairo claimed to have a heavenly teacher. (that doesn't necessarily affect most of his halachic reasoning).
I have read stories of how he and arizal were very close. No doubt he was very much a mystic, and would have accepted the Zohar..

I think it's valid to make a claim against all kabbalah in general.. even criticising whoever, whatever Gadol. But you are talking about halachic experts here too.
Experts whome you will study in yeshiva..
Rav Yosef Kairo is also studied by Maimonideans too, they are often very knowledgeable, and reject certain decisions if they differ with the RAMBAM or are affected by kabbalah..

The way you write, it's as if anybody that accepts the Zohar will believe any claim for its truth.. And thus, you are suggesting that the Arizal is a fool.. or Rav Yosef Kairo is a fool. You would be studying Rav Yosef Kairo's Shulchan Aruch.. in yeshiva, since it's a major work. I don't think you are writing under the understanding that when you attack the zohar you are attacking alot more than that..  And the way you put it, was like anybody that accepts that the zohar was written by Rashbi, is a fool. (because as you said, they would believe any claim that says it is by him)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 04:50:46 PM by q_q_ »

Offline muman613

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2008, 04:52:45 PM »
So you support and you oppose the Zohar. This is a very good position to be in, because either way you will be able to say that you are right... That is extemely 'logical'... <sarc>

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2008, 05:32:22 PM »
So you support and you oppose the Zohar. This is a very good position to be in, because either way you will be able to say that you are right... That is extemely 'logical'... <sarc>



We have been through this many times on other subjects.
I won't rehash.
It won't get anybody anywhere. And it won't get you any better understanding.

You kind of agreed some time back not to refer to my posts with your comments, provoking discussion. People can refer back to previous discussions to see why. It's not good for the forum.

Offline Sefardic Panther

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2008, 05:36:44 PM »
I am not saying the Zohar is authentic "just because a Kabbalist said so". I had a few reasons for believing that it was’nt authentic (although I did suspect it was partially authentic)  so I asked an expert about those reasons and he explained it to me.

The greatest Hakamim (Arizal, Rashash, Ben Ish Hai, Baba Sali, I could go on) accepted the Zohar. Infact many of their teachings, rulings, Kavanot came from the Zohar. Does anyone here think they know better than them? Would they want to dispute the Zohar before a Kosher Beit Din in Yerushalayim?

If I ever meet Moshe De Leon’s wife I’ll ask her why she was embarrassed about selling the Zohar and who did she sell it to. Oh I forgot I don’t have a time machine. In other words how can we possibly know that one?

The school of the Rashbi carried on until the times of the Amoraim. They added some parts, the parts with more modern lingo, to the Zohar. Is the english dictionary filled with elizabethan words? No it has since been revised.  

By the way I have read enough of the Zohar to know that it was written in Aramaic not Hebrew.

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Offline q_q_

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2008, 05:45:04 PM »
I am not saying the Zohar is authentic "just because a Kabbalist said so".

Actually, you did say that.  It was the whole basis of your first post.
That was the entire argument  that you presented as evidence that it was
"definitely authentic".  Notice the subject "The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi". That was the only argument you gave and tried to give, in that first post.
 


Offline muman613

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2008, 06:19:04 PM »
So you support and you oppose the Zohar. This is a very good position to be in, because either way you will be able to say that you are right... That is extemely 'logical'... <sarc>



We have been through this many times on other subjects.
I won't rehash.
It won't get anybody anywhere. And it won't get you any better understanding.

You kind of agreed some time back not to refer to my posts with your comments, provoking discussion. People can refer back to previous discussions to see why. It's not good for the forum.

You surely are a strange one... Are you capable of human conversation or are you just a robot who spews out mysterious and spurious ideas? {rhetorical questions, please don't answer}  I had no problem reading Sefardic Panthers post in light of his understanding. You had to make a point to interject a post which doesn't disprove and doesn't support his position... I am really puzzled at what point you try to make. I know you don't care about anyone else besides your own ego so I don't expect you to explain yourself.

I have yet to see a single posting here where you prove how intelligent you think you really are.

muman613
 
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2008, 01:54:03 AM »
LOL, he went to a kabbalist and he confirmed for him that yes the Zohar was written by Shimon Bar Yochai.   Great, that really clears up the matter.   </sarcasm>

What did you really expect to happen?   Anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise.    We have already quoted in this forum indirectly what Rav Moshe Feinstein said about it, and we know that Rabbi Yaakov Emden said it was a forgery.     If Rabbi Yaakov Emdem was still alive and you could go to him, he would "confirm" for you that it was NOT written by Shimon Bar Yochai.   And then you would come to this forum and report it to us that it really was made by Moshe De Leon?    LOL.

When you go to the extreme that you go to,
e.g. you said "anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise.  "

Even claiming the zohar is a forgery.

it really calls into question the sanity or honesty of many great rabbis.


Rabbi Yaakov Emden had no problem doing that, nor do the Dor Daim and their gadol, nor do many others.  My opinion isn't much needed in this matter.   But I am certainly permitted to decide based on the evidence which opinion is more likely, and which is more correct, to my own logic and reasoning.   But again, my opinion was never even stated here.

Quote
The Arizal, since he claimed heavenly teachers, and accepted the Zohar.
The Vilna Gaon claimed a heavenly teacher, i'm sure that if the Zohar was a forgery, his heavenly teacher would have told him.
Similarly with the Baal Shem Tov ( an easier target 'cos more of a minority of the O community!)

the Arizal - a kabbalist.
The Vilna Gaon - a kabbalist
The Baal Shem Tov - a kabbalist

So that they accepted the Zohar tells us what?   You find this surprising?

We need to use our heads here.   The blatantly obvious nature of this situation should be somewhat self-explanatory, but I guess I have to explain this further.   
" When you go to the extreme that you go to,
e.g. you said "anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise.  ""

Nothing I said here is extreme in any way!   It is simply logical thought that says that anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist" of course accepts that the Zohar was from Rashbi as the kabbalist claim goes.   That is the STARTING POINT for a kabbalist.    It would be like asking if a religious Jew accepts the Torah.   Of course, by virtue of the fact that they are an Orthodox Jew, they do accept it.   Otherwise they couldn't really call themself (honestly) an Orthodox Jew.   In just the same way, no kabbalist or "famous mekubal" could ever possibly NOT believe in the Zohar's claim to have authorship by Rashbi.     It's quite simple.   You've blown this up into absurdity.   But can you not see how ridiculous it is to go and ask the local kabbalist the origins of the Zohar?   If you don't already know the answer he's going to give you, you need serious help!

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2008, 01:57:22 AM »

The way you write, it's as if anybody that accepts the Zohar will believe any claim for its truth.. And thus, you are suggesting that the Arizal is a fool.. or Rav Yosef Kairo is a fool. You would be studying Rav Yosef Kairo's Shulchan Aruch.. in yeshiva, since it's a major work. I don't think you are writing under the understanding that when you attack the zohar you are attacking alot more than that..  And the way you put it, was like anybody that accepts that the zohar was written by Rashbi, is a fool. (because as you said, they would believe any claim that says it is by him)

These are YOUR words.   Do not ascribe to me your words and your own projections.    A person is not a fool for making a mistake if a mistake was made (and I as an honest human being, acknowledge that a mistake was possible to be made by any human, no matter how learned.  I also believe it is heresy to think otherwise).   

A person would be a fool to expect a kabbalist to admit that the Zohar was not written by Rashbi.   Perhaps you and SP fall into this category?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2008, 02:03:17 AM »

If I ever meet Moshe De Leon’s wife I’ll ask her why she was embarrassed about selling the Zohar and who did she sell it to. Oh I forgot I don’t have a time machine. In other words how can we possibly know that one?


Then why did you present that answer as one that was supposed to be appealing to those with doubts, and why did you present this as definitive proof of the Zohar's origins if you yourself don't even know what the story meant!

Quote
 

By the way I have read enough of the Zohar to know that it was written in Aramaic not Hebrew.


No one here ever said it was written in Hebrew.   Try again.
Although I have read that there are serious grammatical problems with the Aramaic that was used.  Which again points to the fact that it may have been written by someone not a native speaker (perhaps Moshe de Leon).  But on this subject I don't know much.

Offline muman613

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2008, 03:59:07 AM »
KWRBT,

So I take it you are one who does not consider Zohar to be authentic to the Torah?

So you must also be suspicious of all the great Torah which comes from Baal Shem Tov and Rabbi Nachman, whos Chassidic Judaism flourished and many wonderful Torah ideas were inspired. I don't know the absolute truth anymore than you do, but I find it hard to believe that such a vibrant and moving part of Judaism was not authentic.

I have read commentaries on Zohar and am very impressed by what I read. In my understanding the words of the Zohar are powerful and contain many hidden secrets.

Maybe I am not familiar with your particular branch of Judaism but from learning from my Orthodox Rabbi and my Chabad Rabbi there is much Kabbalah already in our prayers and our understanding of Torah.

I am interested in learning what you consider authentic Torah...

muman613

PS: I would not have personally labelled this thread "The Zohar is definately written by Rashbi" because this implies that the statement is 100% true. I try not to make such a blanket statement and it is true that a Kabbalist will usually defend the Zohar from any criticism.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2008, 07:39:14 AM »
KWRBT,

So I take it you are one who does not consider Zohar to be authentic to the Torah?


You assume too much.   I currently am not convinced either way and haven't looked into it enough, not in depth...

Quote
So you must also be suspicious of all the great Torah which comes from Baal Shem Tov and Rabbi Nachman, whos Chassidic Judaism flourished and many wonderful Torah ideas were inspired.

You assume too much here as well.    There was a time when the zohar's authenticity was hotly disputed.   As far as I know, after a certain amount of time (100-200 years?) it was determined by a few great rabbonim to contain within it authentic kabbalah.  (When it first came out, consensus by the great rabbonim was against it!) - this is to my limited understanding what the scenario was.   Nonetheless there were still those who disagreed after it was labelled authentic kabbalah, and even among more Litvish authorities, there may be dispute about who authored it.   (Moshe De Leon claimed it to be written by Rashbi and found in a cave if I'm not mistaken).   There are those who accept it, those who don't, and within those who do, there is a whole range of what authority it should be given vis a vis other sources (ie the tannaic statements, gemara, rishonim, etc).   

But I understand that chassidus stems from the kabbalah especially of the zohar and that the chassidic rebbes accept its authenticity.   There are others who disagree, and right now their arguments seem more rational to me.   If it comes to the point that I'm convinced against the Zohar, that doesn't take away from all the greatness of Rabbi Nachman or anyone else.   But it would be my right not to take a kabbalistic approach.   Or anyone else for that matter.   Me being not a "chassid" in the streimel sense of the term, there is already a great body of knowledge that I don't necessarily hold by from any number of great chassidic rabbis.   That doesn't take anything away from them or suggest that I look negatively upon them chas veshalom.   In general, non-chassidim don't hold by chassidus.  Despite the fact that I'm sure there are many deep and wonderful truths and wisdom in chassidus, it is not a guiding principle or dogma for nonchassidic Orthodoxy.

Quote
I have read commentaries on Zohar and am very impressed by what I read. In my understanding the words of the Zohar are powerful and contain many hidden secrets.

That may be, in fact is likely to be true, but that doesn't mean it was written by Shimon Bar Yochai, it doesn't mean everything in it is true, and it certainly doesn't tell us anything about whether it should be valued as a higher authority in halacha than the mishna or gemara...   I've heard from people what sounded to me like heretical ideas where they said zohar is below the level of Torah but equal level with tanach and above the Talmud.    Is this what kabbalists really believe?   And how could they?

Quote
Maybe I am not familiar with your particular branch of Judaism

My "branch" is Orthodox Judaism where we are bound to be committed to the truth.   I don't follow a particular "branch" or "strain" or sect within Orthodoxy because Judaism is not a popularity contest or an "allegiance" to anything but Hashem.   There are good elements in all of these sects and none are perfect.   Then again, most of the various "sects" are based on galut Judaism so it is likely and expected that none would be altogether sufficient by themselves.

Quote
but from learning from my Orthodox Rabbi and my Chabad Rabbi there is much Kabbalah already in our prayers and our understanding of Torah.


the fact that it exists doesn't make it true by virtue of its existence.   It's either mistaken or valid.  Of course elements from the Zohar exist.  If you accept the whole body then there can be no argument against any of it.   If you accept that not all of it is "the gospel" there can be discussion about any given idea as to its authenticity/reliability/validity....


Offline muman613

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2008, 09:01:27 AM »
Thank you KWRBT, you explained your position very clearly...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2008, 09:23:48 AM »
KWRBT,

The only contemporary Kabbalist Rabbi I read and listen to is Rabbi Bar Tzaddok who wrote a article called:

His website is http://www.koshertorah.com

   How the Study of Halakha
Prepares One To Successfully
 Study & Practice Kabbalah


         There are more people today studying Kabbalah than ever before.
  At the same time there is less known about the Kabbalah than ever before.
          Is there a relationship between the numbers and the ignorance?
                                                   Words of Contemplation
                                                  by Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok
                            Copyright © 1999 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved.

This is a topic well known amongst the practicing Kabbalists throughout the Torah
observant world, yet it is almost completely unknown outside of it. So many people have
jumped on the “Kabbalah bandwagon” recently.

Indeed Kabbalah has now become the religious “fad” of choice for the secular Israeli,
non-religious Jew and even a number of interested Gentiles. All of these different types
of people crave to learn the mysteries and secrets of the Torah. Yet, with all the
exposure that they have to what they have been told is Kabbalah, none of them have
even come close to the real thing.

None of them, and I mean NONE of them, even have a clue as to what real Kabbalah is
and wouldn’t recognize it even if it smacked one of them HARD right in the face.

Of course, there are very important spiritual reasons why this state of affairs is the way it
is. In all due respect, as wise King Solomon said, “there is nothing new under the sun”
(Kohelet 1:9). Even during the days of the First Temple, the number of dabblers in
Kabbalah was staggering. The results then were even worse than they are now.

It was these dangerous dabblings that led to the destruction of the Holy Temple, the
removal of the Divine Presence and the concealing of the holy Ark and Temple vessels
to this very day.

The dangerous dabblings in Kabbalah during the days of the First Temple is clear to
anyone who reads the section of the N’vi’im in the TaNaK (Bible). Then, in Biblical
times, Kabbalah wasn’t called Kabbalah. It had another name, it’s original and correct
name.

During First Temple times, Kabbalah, the study of Jewish metaphysics, was an integral
part of the training of the Biblical prophets. Kabbalah was a part of prophecy.
Our Sages teach that during First Temple times there were possibly over a million
students studying this prophetic-Kabbalistic material.1 Yet out of this vast, vast number
only a few dozen succeeded in becoming true prophets of HaShem.

Unfortunately, the number of false prophets and false prophecies were far more
numerous. It was these false Kabbalistic visions and teachings, coming from false
prophet-teachers that blinded the eyes of the nation and led them away from the true
path of repentance.

When this occurred the wrath of HaShem was sealed upon us. Thus, we see from
history that the study of false Kabbalah lulls its students into a sense of false security.
They begin to think that teshuva (repentance) is not of paramount importance as long as
they are studying Kabbalah.

At the same time this contamination & misalignment of the worlds arouses the wrath of
HaShem against these false teachers and their students. The result is devastating
punishment.

One cannot “play” with spiritual powers and expect not to be harmed by them when one
is not holy enough to interact with them correctly, as defined by Torah.

Let us explore why this is so. Indeed this state of false learning and false spiritual
practices is much worse than if nothing at all was studied or practiced. This requires an
explanation.

Prophecy is the study of how the human soul (and mind) broadens its horizons to
encompass and experience the reality of the Presence of G-d. In order for this lofty goal
to be achieved, many steps must be taken along the way. Each of these steps has to do
with the expansion of mental capacity and intellectual function.

Prophetic training educated its students and taught them how to think and how to clearly
recognize metaphysical reality from metaphysical falsehoods. This manner of training
was accomplished through the study of the physical laws, what we call today Jewish
Law, the Halakha.

It is taught throughout the TaNaK and all later Torah literature that there are two levels in
creation.3 We refer to these two as the physical and the spiritual. The two are integrally
connected. One “fits” over the other like a hand in a glove. The two dimensions interact
togther as body and soul. What occurs in the one affects the other.

The natural order of creation, therefore, is for both the physical and spiritual dimensions
to exist in complete harmony with one another. Yet, just as someone can abuse their
physical bodies and thus cause themselves both physical and spiritual harm, so too do
our physical actions in this world reverberate great help or harm in the spiritual plane.
Now, due to the fall of our father Adam collective mankind no longer has the ability to
consciously interact with the spiritual plane. We are, in essence, cut off from it.

If collective mankind was to remain cut off from its spiritual source and counterpart then
the physical world would no longer be able to survive. Mankind and our physical world
around us would disintegrate at the sub-atomic level. Nothing would be left. The world
would return to Tahu & Bohu as it was before creation.

The Holy One, blessed be He, in His great mercy, however, reestablished the link broken
by Adam. After his expulsion from Eden, Adam was given specific instructions as to how
to regain and maintain the spiritual world-physical world relationship. These instructions
were written down for him in a book that was delivered to him by HaShem’s faithful
messenger, Raziel HaMalakh.

Ten generations of mankind arose and only a small few followed the edicts as laid down
by father Adam. In the seventh generation from Adam, there arose a great and holy
soul, Hanokh Ben Yared. He lived 365 years and “was not” for G-d had taken him (ref.
Gen. 5:24).

Prior to Hanokh’s ascent into heaven, he also received a “book” which gave instructions
on Divine service.

These books of Adam and Hanokh were eventually passed down to Noah and from
Noah to his son Shem, eventually reaching our holy father Avraham. It was Avraham
was decided to speak out to the masses and instruct them in the ancient wisdom and to
restore their paths to HaShem.

Our Sages have taught that Avraham too wrote a book, some 400 chapters long,
explaining to the members of his generation the way of G-d and how to avoid idolatry.
All that we have left of this great work are five short and brief chapters that we today call
the “Sefer Yetzirah.”

This manual of knowledge was passed down to Avraham’s son Yitzhak and from Yitzhak
to Ya’aqob. Ya’aqob passed it onto his 12 sons, who, as we all know, went down into
Egypt.

The story of the exodus is well known to us all, as is the experience of our receiving the
Torah at Mt. Sinai. Yet, we must understand that the giving of the Torah at Sinai was
something G-d had planned from the very beginning of creation. Israel was the reason
for G-d’s originally creating the universe.

The role of Israel is to live the Torah and by doing so establishing the balance between
the physical and spiritual worlds. Adam, Hanokh, Avraham, Yitzhak and Ya’aqob, all
received instructions and guidance that were parts of the Torah, but Moshe Rabbeynu
received the whole package.

The Torah of Moshe would not only align the balance between the spiritual and physical
dimensions, it would enable mankind to cultivate the forces in the universe and to
harvest them, thereby making manifest all the best in creation.

As the Jewish people stood at Mt. Sinai the culmination of creation was at hand. The
entire universe had been waiting for this moment when Israel would receive the Torah
and, thereby, receive all the necessary instructions as to how best to operate creation.

The children of Israel had been prepared to recognize metaphysical reality and how best
to integrate it with the physical, thus completing the links in the chain of creation.
However, a “minor” problem arose. There were those members among the people who
didn’t achieve the spiritual insight to deal with an invisible universe and an abstract G-d.
While Moses was atop of Mt. Sinai receiving the Torah, this minority managed to
convince Aharon the Kohen to create for them a concrete form of abstract reality.

This might not sound like such a bad idea. After all, we all need assistance in perceiving
the invisible and concretizing the abstract. Well, G-d did not agree. Actually, G-d viewed
the sin of the Golden Calf as having nullified His purpose for creation.

Had it not been for the intercession of our teacher Moses, none of us would have ever
lived. Indeed, G-d had planned to scrap the world and start all over again. Moses
pleaded with G-d to give us another chance. So like with Adam before hand, G-d
forgave us and instructed Moses, giving him a book. This book, which we still read to
this day, is our holy Torah. Yet, the Kabbalists have taught us that the Torah we read
today is but a cloak and veil for the real concealed Torah.

The Torah that we read is multi-leveled. The Kabbalists instruct us that the Torah can be
compared to the layers of an onion. We see and interact with its surface. Yet, deep
beneath its surface lie layer upon layer of meanings and secret powers awaiting our
discovery.

The key to discovering the Torah’s latent powers lie within the recesses of the human
mind. As we cultivate and develop our individual human intelligence, we enable
ourselves to penetrate deeper and deeper into the Torah’s true depths.

Yet, alas for us humans, a species of lazy minds. If we would only invest the energy into
the cultivation of our deepest potentials, we would begin to see the wonders that G-d has
waiting for us. Thus, we were commanded to study the Torah by both day and by night.

The first thing that becomes apparent when studying the surface of the Torah is that
there appears to be many loose ends and unexplained things. In order to understand
the simple meaning of the Torah text one must delve deeper into the text in order to
discover its true meaning.

This requires of us effort, an effort of mind and an effort of time. This process of effort
and discovery is what we call “study.” Its purpose is to sharpen the mind, to enable it to
see the relationship between apparently unrelated things. Without this sharpening of
human intellectual abilities, the world will continue to remain a mystery to us and we will
remain as an enigma unto ourselves.

In order to penetrate into the depths of the Torah one must first peel away the surface
layers. This general rule is well understood and accepted. But who is willing to invest
the time and the mental effort to perform this great and heavy task? Only the holy Sages
rise up and accomplish this. They are the Rabbis who study the Torah, live it and
eventually are introduced to its secrets, which are the Kabbalah.

It is for this reason that one can never successfully study Kabbalah without first being an
expert in Halakha (Jewish Law). The Halakha is indeed the surface level of the Torah
referred to above. It is these very same levels that must be toiled over and peeled away
in order to get into the deeper layers. There are no shortcuts.


Let me provide an example. One cannot one day have an I.Q. of 100 and then suddenly
jump to an I.Q. of 150 without going through the grades of 110, 120, 130 and 140. This
is simply the boundaries and limitations of nature. And indeed if one claims to have an
I.Q. of such a lofty number as 150, it would be rather apparent. It is evident by how one
talks, how one thinks and how one acts. In other words, it is not something that can be
faked. Either you have it or you don’t. It is the same thing with studying Torah, either
you have acquired the intellectual skills for deeper penetration or you haven’t. The ability
to study cannot be counterfeited. Either you have the brain for it or you don’t. If you do,
then you have the ability to penetrate into the depths of the Torah. If you don’t, then you
fool yourself if you believe otherwise.

This mistake of self-deception was what was so prevalent during First Temple times.
Many attempted to penetrate the surface layers of the Torah. Some tried extremely hard
and eventually succeeded. Others did not try hard enough. They slackened their efforts
and eventually deceived themselves into believing that they had accomplished
something that they did not. The true masters of Torah, the prophets, saw through these
charlatans and spoke out against them. Yet, human nature is as it is and deception rules
where there is a weak and lazy mind.

Rather than take the necessary steps, many chose to follow the path of the Golden Calf
and substituted surface for substance and delusion for discipline. This is what led to the
destruction of the holy First Temple. This is also why prophecy was removed from the
people at this time. If the prophetic schools had remained open, the scenario would
have quickly repeated itself and the result indeed would have been the destruction of the
world.

Prophecy and metaphysical Judaism, i.e., the Kabbalah were forced into hiding. If the
general public would not respect the holy path, they could not be allowed to walk it.

This can be compared to the use of a firearm. We live in a dangerous world and a
firearm is very useful and necessary. Yet, if one wishes to use it arbitrarily and not
simply for self-defense, then such a one is adding to the problem instead of helping to
solve it. So it is with metaphysical prophetic Torah, i.e. the Kabbalah. Unless one is
willing to learn it and use it correctly, one causes more harm than good. The masters of
the Torah system, therefore, have the obligation to protect the general Jewish public by
denying access to the holy powers to those who are not holy.

If this safeguard is violated, havoc is unleashed, upon mankind and upon the supernal
worlds.

Now, let us delve a little deeper into the secrets of the Kabbalah so as to understand
WHY this is all so.

The original sin of Adam, we remember, was his eating of the fruit from the Etz HaDa’at
Tov V’Ra (Tree of Knowledge, good and evil). By doing so, Adam descended into the
realm of good and evil. Prior to this, Adam existed harmoniously in Eden, the place that
is above evil.

As a result of the fall, Adam (collective mankind) became surrounded by good and evil
on all sides. Yet, this is no cause for alarm, for although evil surrounds us, it is still,
nonetheless, outside of us. We are not required to invite evil into our lives, thus harming
ourselves. There is, however, one minor problem.

When Adam partook of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, he was cast out of Eden
and not permitted to eat of the fruit of the Etz Haim (Tree of Life). This tree and its fruit
would have given Adam the instinctual ability to separate from evil.

In Eden, this was not needed because evil did not exist there. One is not prepared to
exit Eden, however, until one has tasted of the fruit of the Tree of Life. Now, collective
mankind has lost that opportunity. We exited Eden completely unprepared to face the
realities of what existed outside. That is why Adam was given his book from Raziel
HaMalakh.

Upon our descent into the physical realms, which the Torah refers to as “good and evil”
we are no longer equipped with sufficient spiritual knowledge to discern the difference
between good and evil. Thus we end up quite inadvertently inviting evil into our lives, all
the while believing it to be good. We find out only after it is too late and the damage to
ourselves is done.

In the realm of the sefirot, the Tree of Life refers to Hokhma, the sefirah of intuition and
spiritual, internal knowing. Hokhma provides us with an awareness of the invisible
worlds unseen and unable to be seen with the physical eye (or by any other means of
mere data gathering

The Tree of Knowledge refers to Binah; the sefirah of intellect where information is
received and processed from external sources through the five sensory organs. Binah
thus enables us to comprehend and interact with our external environment.

Thus, the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge limits our reception of information to the physical
plane, whereas the fruit of the Tree of Life connects one to the spiritual plane. It is this
level of connection that we lost upon our exile from Eden.

Mankind thus has an inherent handicap in his spiritual senses. Torah was given to us as
the means to rectify and overcome this. Yet, we must separate spiritual reality from
religious myth and explain just HOW the Torah operates to accomplish this task of tikkun
(rectification).

Indeed, the Torah is comprised of mitzvot, which are actions that we are to do and
actions that we are not to do. Even the books of Adam and Hanokh contained actions
and rituals of this nature. The mere performance of these mitzvot opens the channels
between the spiritual and physical worlds and enables Divine radiance to flow from
above to below. Thus, the performance of mitzvot provides for us the framework and
boundaries that safeguard us from the penetration of evil.

Nevertheless, we must do more than mere rote actions. These only open the channels
at the most basic of levels. We also must repair our initial blemish, which is the eating of
the fruit of the wrong Tree. As it was our knowledge that was blemished (from the Tree
of Knowledge) so must our knowledge (i.e., intellect) be repaired. Repair of knowledge
is defined as intellectual refinement. In other words, learning to be smart, very smart.
Tikun HaSekhel (rectifying the mind) requires of us humans to learn HOW to use our
minds.

Simple book learning and memorization is not enough for Tikun HaSekhel (rectifying the
mind). We are required to expand our thinking abilities and to comprehend all that we
study. If something comes along that we do not understand, we must make all efforts
possible to “break our skulls” in order to make sense out of the unclear and to make
order out of confusion.

Indeed the great Kabbalistic master, the Ari’zal would spend a great portion of his day
studying Talmud and other Torah legal texts. It is reported of him that he would break
out into a profuse sweat every day attempting to understand apparantly conflicting
Halakhic matters.

He would not stop his analysis of a Halakhic topic until he finally acheived full
comprenhension of the matter from beginning to end. The Ari’zal said that any difficulty
of understanding as well as any and all confusion have their source in the klipot (forces
of evil). Only by one pushing oneself to one’s intellectual limits and thereby discovering
the order in the chaos does one accomplish Tikun HaSekhel (rectifying the mind).

Indeed, in the introduction to his Sefer Etz Haim, Rabbi Haim Vital, the Ari’zal’s prime
disciple demands that any aspiring student of Kabbalah must first study Talmud and
Halakha for at least five years!


When one’s mind has developed the necessary analytical skills to penetrate and resolve
all conflicts and apparent contradictions in the surface teachings of the Torah, only then
is one’s mind prepared to delve deeper beneath the Torah’s surface.

The study of Halakha exposes the human mind to a wide variety of real-life human
situations. Whether the examples come from the Talmud, the Shulkhan Arukh (Code of
Jewish Law) or other Torah sources, not all of them are clear and evident. Many times
Jewish Law is as confusing as is life itself. By one becoming a master of understanding
Jewish Law, one becomes a master of understanding life (i.e. the life we live here in the
physical world). Such a Torah Sage is called a “Hakham” (a wise man). For such a
Sage has mastered the skills of understanding Binah. His knowledge and perceptions of
physical reality are honed. He is now prepared to delve into metaphysical reality.


As mentioned above the physical and spiritual dimensions lie on top of one another,
fitting over each other like a hand in glove. Once a Hakham has learned the mastery of
the Torah in this physical world, he is ready to encounter the Torah’s spiritual
counterpart. The Hakham applies all the lessons that he has learned from surface
Torah, coupled with his now fine tuned intellect and he is ready to grasp the invisible and
to see the unseen.

And how can he see the unseen? Because the Hakham knows the Halakha (ways) of
Torah! He knows its patterns, methods and laws, here in the physical world. All he need
now do is follow the same pattern of Halakha and of logic and the unseen spiritual Torah
will appear before his eyes.

But the secrets of the Torah will not appear before his physical eyes, they will only
appear to his inner eye, the spiritual “eye” that is now trained to perceive and understand
inner, intuitive Hokhma wisdom. Indeed a Sage is rightly called a Hakham (wise man).
For only a Hakham can approach Hokhma.

So, what becomes of one who attempts to delve into the depths of Torah by studying
Kabbalah before they have been properly prepared? Obviously, they become spiritually
lost. There is no other option or alternative.

Unless a person has learned to use his brain for himself, rectifying it through the study of
Torah and the observance of the mitzvot, no spiritual entity from the realm of Holiness
has the ability to make contact with him/her. Simply put, unless one has cultivated a
relationship with the Torah and the mitzvot here in this world, it is an impossible task to
connect with the Torah’s messengers who dwell in the spiritual realms. One simply
doesn’t have the mental faculty necessary to be able to connect with an Angel of
holiness. There can be no congruency of brain frequencies without the necessary
mental preparations and attunements to holiness.

Read the complete article at http://koshertorah.com/PDF/Halakha%20Before%20Kabbalah.pdf

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2008, 09:29:58 AM »

The way you write, it's as if anybody that accepts the Zohar will believe any claim for its truth.. And thus, you are suggesting that the Arizal is a fool.. or Rav Yosef Kairo is a fool. You would be studying Rav Yosef Kairo's Shulchan Aruch.. in yeshiva, since it's a major work. I don't think you are writing under the understanding that when you attack the zohar you are attacking alot more than that..  And the way you put it, was like anybody that accepts that the zohar was written by Rashbi, is a fool. (because as you said, they would believe any claim that says it is by him)

These are YOUR words.   Do not ascribe to me your words and your own projections.    A person is not a fool for making a mistake if a mistake was made (and I as an honest human being, acknowledge that a mistake was possible to be made by any human, no matter how learned.  I also believe it is heresy to think otherwise).   

A person would be a fool to expect a kabbalist to admit that the Zohar was not written by Rashbi.   Perhaps you and SP fall into this category?

Your words were

""anyone who believes that the Zohar was written by Rashbi (most certainly including anyone who considers themself a "kabbalist") is going to use any possible claim to support this belief and would never say otherwise.  ""

Anybody that fits the description you give there is a fool!!!!


(my representation of your words was they would believe any claim that says it is by him"). That is accurate. But one can ignore my representation.


Regarding your latter point, no I don't fit into the category you describe.. Funnily enough you make a freudian slip there using the word "admit"! (implying that we all know that the zohar was not written by rashbi, the question is whether the kabbalist will admit it or not!).  Notice that Sefardic panther gave a secondary reason, so I doubt that he fits into that category either.  There is no problem -logically- with asking an orthodox jew why he believes the torah, or asking a kabbalist why he believes the zohar.. e.t.c. or challenging them with the idea that it is false and noting the response and analysing it.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 01:42:08 PM by q_q_ »

Offline Sefardic Panther

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2008, 11:39:23 AM »
No I did not say the Zohar is authentic "just because a Kabbalist said so" this was not my only argument. I originally had some doubts on the Zohar being completely authentic (The Spanish words. The reference to the crusades. And the story about Moshe De Leon’s wife’s confession.) Aside from that I largely thought it was authentic because most Rabbis say so and how else could people 2000 years ago (or even in the middle ages if you like) have known the advanced scientific knowledge in the Zohar (black holes, spherical rotating earth, string theory, quantum physics etc). I asked an expert on the Zohar about those doubts and he provided a perfectly consistant explanation. His explanation is the reason I conclude the Zohar is authentic. I was not expecting him to tell me the Zohar was not authentic that would be contrary to what most other Rabbis believe and contrary to all the strong arguments for the Zohar’s authentcicty.

There is infact a similar explanation of Moshe De Leon’s wife’s confession in Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan’s Meditation And Kabbalah. This is not just a rumour. The fact that the rich man she lied to turned out to be the biggest proponent of the Zohar’s authenticity should be proof enough. Why exactly did she lie to him and who did she sell the Zohar to is another story.

In q_q_’s first reply “one also needs to be fluent in hebrew to study the zohar”. The Aramaic that was used is infact similar to the Aramaic used in Rashbi’s time. The style of writing in the Zohar is unlike Moshe De Leon’s original books.

I would advise caution for anyone who thinks they know better than all the great Hakamim and Rabbis who said the Zohar was written by Rashbi!!! Just as there are many so called scholars who attribute the Zohar to Moshe De Leon, there are also many so called scholars who attribute the Torah not to Moshe Rabbeinu but to Ezra (the “documentary hypothesis”). Does anyone here take that one on too? If you reject what the Hakamim say why not order a double bacon cheeseburger while you’re at it? 

"Let there be a holocaust on the anti-semites!!!" - Rabbi Mordechai Friedman Shlita

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2008, 01:33:40 PM »
<snip>
In q_q_’s first reply “one also needs to be fluent in hebrew to study the zohar”. The Aramaic that was used is infact similar to the Aramaic used in Rashbi’s time. The style of writing in the Zohar is unlike Moshe De Leon’s original books.
<snip>

this was somewhat of a mistake..you caught it earlier, but if you had quoted me so people know who you are referring to, then it would have reduced confusion.

apparently some parts are in hebrew, most is in aramaic. 
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 01:40:45 PM by q_q_ »

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Re: The Zohar Definitely Was Written By Rashbi
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2008, 01:52:54 PM »
<snip>
I would advise caution for anyone who thinks they know better than all the great Hakamim and Rabbis who said the Zohar was written by Rashbi!!!

funny to talk of advising caution when you made that first post of yours.

chachamim can be wrong particularly outside of halacha, e.g. in hashkafa. Kabbalah or not. Staying in israel or not.

Just saying many wise rabbis believe it.. That doesn't make it true and it isn't even good as evidence. Many wise rabbis wanted the jews to stay in poland. They were wrong.

A better reason is that it really makes the Arizal (and others with heavenly teachers) look bad.
He accepted it he believed it, studied it deeply without a doubt, and he claimed to have a heavenly teacher.. I'm sure that his heavenly teacher would have told him if it were not right.   There are other rabbis that claimed a heavenly teacher and believed the zohar.



Just as there are many so called scholars who attribute the Zohar to Moshe De Leon, there are also many so called scholars who attribute the Torah not to Moshe Rabbeinu but to Ezra (the “documentary hypothesis”). Does anyone here take that one on too? If you reject what the Hakamim say why not order a double bacon cheeseburger while you’re at it? 

The evidence for the Torah Mi Sinai, is much stronger..  As you should know.

And DH is far more than saying the Torah was not given at Sinai. It is a theory about how it developed (happens to be a wild theory).   

It doesn't take deep thought to see those 2 significant differences.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 02:11:50 PM by q_q_ »