Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh on the idolatrous beleifs of the Qabalah.
Sefardic Panther:
The concept of the 10 Sefiroth also comes from sources outside the Zohar which no Rabbi can dispute!!!
Talmud Bavli Hagigah 12a and Pirkei Avoth 5:1, specifically says the world was created with 10 expressions.
Sefer Yetzirah discusses the Sefiroth and I find it very hard to believe that any Rabbi would reject this Sefer.
Hakam Azriel of Gerona said the Sefiroth are a necessary part of Hashem’s perfection. Hashem would not be perfect if He was absolutely infinite, He must also have finite manifestation (the Sefiroth) to be perfect.
This concept is to be found throughout Torah!!!
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 07, 2008, 12:58:51 AM ---
But I would like to say that continued fueding between the Misnagdim and the Chassidim is not productive.
--- End quote ---
But that's not what this is. Mitnagdim accepted kabbalah. At least I think they did. Considering the Vilna Gaon was the leading Mitnag, and he was most certainly a kabbalist.
Muman, keep in mind that there are different hashkafas within Judaism, and by saying that the Zohar was not written by Rashbi is not saying that there can't be any such concept as kabbalah or even that the Zohar contains nothing good in it. On the contrary. There is much deep wisdom in the Zohar even if it was written in the 1200's, which I suspect it was. I just would caution that it is not a 'new revelation' as some here would like to think, it is not perfect, and there can certainly be errors or even mistaken concepts in it. At least according to my limited understanding and opinion. By no means do I suggest that kabbalah should go in the trash bin as a whole. But I think it's fairly reasonable to suggest that it shouldn't influence halachic decisions and it certainly shouldn't by default override other Rishonim, the Talmud, Amoraim, Tannaim, the mishna, Chumash etc....
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 05, 2008, 12:10:54 PM --- In some ways they are part of man (at least each man does contain the "dna" of these things). The Sefirot are just channels and the way that G-d created and interacts with man. They are not to be worshipped, or identified as being seperate or independent of G-d.
--- End quote ---
Actually, the Zohar and many kabbalistic works says that they are to be worshipped. That is why Rabbi Gafekh was so opposed to kabbalah as any decent jew should be to such ideas.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 11, 2008, 06:55:51 AM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 05, 2008, 12:10:54 PM --- In some ways they are part of man (at least each man does contain the "dna" of these things). The Sefirot are just channels and the way that G-d created and interacts with man. They are not to be worshipped, or identified as being seperate or independent of G-d.
--- End quote ---
Actually, the Zohar and many kabbalistic works says that they are to be worshipped. That is why Rabbi Gafekh was so opposed to kabbalah as any decent jew should be to such ideas.
--- End quote ---
no doubt he would reject it anyway..
but it seems there are many many reasons why he is -so opposed- to it. And perhaps if it's not one thing it's something else..
Do you have a source, a quote, for the zohar saying to worship it?
If it's convincing, then maybe somebody that knows a kabbalist could ask them - not for their interpretation, but for evidence that the traditional interpretation is not to worship it.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 07, 2008, 03:53:50 PM ---The concept of the 10 Sefiroth also comes from sources outside the Zohar which no Rabbi can dispute!!!
--- End quote ---
Watch me!!!!!!
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 07, 2008, 03:53:50 PM ---Talmud Bavli Hagigah 12a and Pirkei Avoth 5:1, specifically says the world was created with 10 expressions.
--- End quote ---
First of all, can you not see the difference between creating the world using ten sayings and ten sefirotic beings that combine together to form various combination that kabbalists beleive can be prayed to?
Second of all, from the beginning of the creation until the creation of Hawa(Eve), it says "and G-d said" ten times.
Here they are:
1 And G-d said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light.
2 And G-d said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.'
3 And G-d said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so.
4 And G-d said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so.
5 And G-d said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
6 And G-d said: 'Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let fowl fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.'
7 And G-d said: 'Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind.' And it was so.
8 And G-d said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.'
9 And G-d said: 'Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed--to you it shall be for food;
10 And the LORD G-d said: 'It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him.'
What that has to do with Ten Sefiroth, is anyone's guess.
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 07, 2008, 03:53:50 PM ---Sefer Yetzirah discusses the Sefiroth and I find it very hard to believe that any Rabbi would reject this Sefer.
--- End quote ---
Actually, Rabbi Saadya Gaon wrote a commentary on the Sefer Yetzirah and he did not interpret it kabbalistically at all.
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 07, 2008, 03:53:50 PM ---Hakam Azriel of Gerona said the Sefiroth are a necessary part of Hashem’s perfection. Hashem would not be perfect if He was absolutely infinite, He must also have finite manifestation (the Sefiroth) to be perfect.
--- End quote ---
Wow, that really is idolatry!!!!
That contradicts the faith of Israel in the most fundamental way.
You wrote it very simply. Kabbalah does not beleive that Hashem is absolutely infinite.
Simply shocking.
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on December 07, 2008, 03:53:50 PM ---This concept is to be found throughout Torah!!!
--- End quote ---
Yes, Idolatry and idolatrous beleifs are mentioned throughout the Torah as one of the most evil acts a person can do and the reason that the Nation of Israel was sent into exile.
True, that concept is to be found throughout Torah!!!
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