Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh on the idolatrous beleifs of the Qabalah.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 11, 2008, 02:44:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 11, 2008, 06:55:51 AM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 05, 2008, 12:10:54 PM --- In some ways they are part of man (at least each man does contain the "dna" of these things). The Sefirot are just channels and the way that G-d created and interacts with man. They are not to be worshipped, or identified as being seperate or independent of G-d.
--- End quote ---
Actually, the Zohar and many kabbalistic works says that they are to be worshipped. That is why Rabbi Gafekh was so opposed to kabbalah as any decent jew should be to such ideas.
--- End quote ---
no doubt he would reject it anyway..
but it seems there are many many reasons why he is -so opposed- to it. And perhaps if it's not one thing it's something else..
Do you have a source, a quote, for the zohar saying to worship it?
If it's convincing, then maybe somebody that knows a kabbalist could ask them - not for their interpretation, but for evidence that the traditional interpretation is not to worship it.
--- End quote ---
Zohar, Parashath Beshalah Page 64, on the verse (Ex. 17:7) "Is Hashem (Y-H-W-H) in our midst,
or not ? Zohar asks: "Were the Israelites fools etc.? But they wanted to know
whether (nameless Ancient One) called (Ayin, Nothing) [was in their
midst] or Ze'er Anpin called Hashem. For this reason it is not written: Is Hashem in
our midst or not , as it is written (Ex. 16): "whether they will walk in My law or
not ".
The Israelites said: If it is this one
(nameless Ancient One), we will petition in a certain manner, and if it is this one
(Hashem, Y-H-W-H) we will petition in another manner.
(The Commentary of Mahari Lupis explains
that Zohar means that our ancestors wanted to know who was leading them and
performing all these miracles: whether God who is called Ze'er Anpin and by the
Tetragrammaton, or Ayin (nothing), who is called Attik (the Ancient One). They
sought this information in order to serve him in the proper manner: if Ze'er Anpin in
one manner, and if Attik in a different manner. For there is a difference between
service and service, and between intention and intention. They remained in doubt
until they heard: "I am the L-rd thy G-d." Then they knew that it was Ze'er Anpin).
judeanoncapta:
q_q_, this is from the Kabbalistic book Mikdash Melekh page 12. It is a normative book of Kabbalah accepted as legitimate by all Kabbalists today.
"... If one directs himself to En Sof,(The Infinite G-d) because of His exaltedness
above any name or point that can limit Him, his prayer is not a prayer. He should
rather direct himself to Him (En Sof), as He is clothed in His attributes (i.e., in His
Sefiroth) ...".
This is making it as clear as possible that one must pray to G-d "through" the sefiroth. To the point where if you simply pray to G-d the infinite being who created the universe, according to Kabbalah, your prayer is worthless.
That is shocking, but that is the true beleif of Kabbalah.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
I am not focused right now, maybe I will take a better look after the finals and read everything pertaining to this thread, but from my understanding and from what I know and was told- the Sefirot are more of channels from G-d to man. If we were to recieve directly from G-d's light it would be too overwealming for us and we would "vanish into Ein Sof" so to speak. Through proper meditation people have gone into higher state's of consciousness, and in the past have gone even through that and have recieved prophecy. Moshe was the one to recieve the most proximity to Hash-m becuase he was the most humble (which makes perfect sense becuase the more the self is nullified, the more one gets absorbed closer to Ein Sof- which is Infinite).
But yea in general, the Sefirot are channels, their is a constant flow of energy coming down through these channels, but that doesn't make them seperate entities of their own, or seperate gods or powers.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 11, 2008, 03:51:54 PM --- But yea in general, the Sefirot are channels, their is a constant flow of energy coming down through these channels, but that doesn't make them seperate entities of their own, or seperate gods or powers.
--- End quote ---
And yet the kabbalists claim that all prayer should be directed to six of the ten sefiroth because this combination is Zeer Anpin and Zeer Anpin is our god that took us out of the land egypt, the god referred to in the Torah as the Lord thy God, Hashem Elokenu.
These six sefiroth combination is Hashem Elokenu and all prayer, service and worship is directed to Zeer anpin only. Prayer directly prayed toward the Infinite G-d is worthless and actually a sin according to the Zohar.
This is what is actually written in the Zohar and it's commentaries. Perhaps modern day kabbalistic apologists tell you that they are channels, whatever.
That is not what is written in the kabbalistic sources themselves.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 11, 2008, 03:50:52 PM ---q_q_, this is from the Kabbalistic book Mikdash Melekh page 12. It is a normative book of Kabbalah accepted as legitimate by all Kabbalists today.
"... If one directs himself to En Sof,(The Infinite G-d) because of His exaltedness
above any name or point that can limit Him, his prayer is not a prayer. He should
rather direct himself to Him (En Sof), as He is clothed in His attributes (i.e., in His
Sefiroth) ...".
This is making it as clear as possible that one must pray to G-d "through" the sefiroth. To the point where if you simply pray to G-d the infinite being who created the universe, according to Kabbalah, your prayer is worthless.
That is shocking, but that is the true beleif of Kabbalah.
--- End quote ---
suppose we take them not as channels, but different aspects of G-d.
It's seems similar to in tenach, where G-d has different names, one for judgement, one for mercy. And sometimes it is written as if it's Elokim doing things, other times like "Yudkayvavkay" doing things, (and sometimes both names in the same sentence). It's only when read in the context of jewish belief, which is also in the tenach, that we know it is the same one G-d, and there is no other beside him. Outside that context, you could say "different gods".
It's taking the tenach's descriptions of G-d a bit literally to say that if you want G-d to be merciful, use his mercy name, just pray to that. But would that be idolatry? I don't think so. That is similar to what kabbalists might be doing..
Regarding it saying not praying to the Ein Sof - the infinite G-d. They may mean that G-d occupies space and don't pray to tables and chairs. If they did pray to the "Ein Sof", then with their conception, given what they mean by it, it would be idolatry. Worshipping or addressing physical objects or beings ..
Can you give a definition of idolatry that covers any false conception of G-d?
/ idolatry as worshipping that false conception? (not talking about worshipping a man or object)
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