Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
muman613:
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 21, 2008, 02:43:11 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 02:37:55 AM ---I have donated money to my local chabad house, i've eaten there, and besides that, I would know.
--- End quote ---
Yeah.
--- End quote ---
C.F,
In all honesty Chabad is not truly Zionistic like you envision. My point is that all of Chassidus is not zionistic by our definition.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 21, 2008, 03:12:43 AM ---
--- Quote from: C.F. on December 21, 2008, 02:43:11 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 02:37:55 AM ---I have donated money to my local chabad house, i've eaten there, and besides that, I would know.
--- End quote ---
Yeah.
--- End quote ---
C.F,
In all honesty Chabad is not truly Zionistic like you envision. My point is that all of Chassidus is not zionistic by our definition.
--- End quote ---
not just chassidus. "non chassidus" too. religious Misnagdim are largely non or anti zionist.
we don't need to repeat though that practically speaking, there is little difference. No difference in terms of directly costing jewish lives giving land. The difference is on a theoretical point in the past, possibly a theoretical point on the future, and the semantics of the word zionism.
Shas's big problem costing jewish lives, is not that they are not religious zionist. It's that they give land for peace when it's, against the Torah according to RZs. Infact, according to ovadia yosef, it's against the Torah to give land when it doesn't get true peace, the guy is a mess.
There is a big difference between non-zionists and rabbi bar hayyim religious zionism in terms of future dreams.. psychologically and in jewish life. But this is not the issue of directly costing jewish lives with suicidal policies.
In britain, we had only 2 or 3 rabbis that would write in the main jewish press defending israel. One chabad, one died, and one religious zionist that has since made aliyah. Often in the right wing modern orthodox shuls, even centrist modern orthodox, the rabbi is not a zionist even if many conregants are. And modern orthodox in britain is to the left of in The USA. (some are like many masorti type congregants with an orthodox rabbi that makes sure things are run properly and any religious jew is able to daven there). still, there aren't many RZ rabbis in the diaspora (if there were they would go to israel).. So, it's far from just chassidim. It's misnagdim too.
Chaim Ben Pesach:
בס''ד
This rabbi was born and raised in Israel, and then abandoned Israel in 1989 when he was 21 years old. He has lived in America since 1989.
What a terrible example he sets for the Jewish people! If everyone did what he did, not only would the state of Israel be destroyed, the entire Jewish people would be destroyed, G-d forbid. He left Israel to make money in the Diamond District and then moved to anti-Zionist Monsey.
I wish our people here spoke Hebrew so I could give you links to what the leading rabbis in Eretz Yisrael say about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile).
DownwithIslam:
--- Quote from: Chaim Ben Pesach on December 21, 2008, 07:27:27 AM --- בס''ד
This rabbi was born and raised in Israel, and then abandoned Israel in 1989 when he was 21 years old. He has lived in America since 1989.
What a terrible example he sets for the Jewish people! If everyone did what he did, not only would the state of Israel be destroyed, the entire Jewish people would be destroyed, G-d forbid. He left Israel to make money in the Diamond District and then moved to anti-Zionist Monsey.
I wish our people here spoke Hebrew so I could give you links to what the leading rabbis in Eretz Yisrael say about the horrific sin of a Jew leaving the Holy Land for the galut (exile).
--- End quote ---
Chaim, this is exactly what I have been trying to say. I do not think that Rabbi Mizrahi is a bad person, I just think that he has made terrible mistakes, one of which was leaving the land of Israel. I mean cmon, is he saying that their are no jews in Israel who need to be brought back to judaism? I am sure the work that he does could be done in Israel and it is in fact much needed there. Chaim you didn't mention this but I believe he does a crime by bashing christians in general while he fails to point out the millions of bible believing christians who pray for Israel. Many of the young people who go to his lecture come away thinking that all the "goyim" are the enemy.
Now onto Chaimfans point about judeanoncapta and lubavitch. I know what Judeanoncaptas position is on lubavitch as he did a show awhile back and I have discussed it with him awhile ago. Of course I don't agree with him but why would I focus on what we disagree on when their is so much more we do agree on. I dont even bring up chabad to him because I would rather just discuss what we agree on and try to help this forum together.
Muman613, I don't know what Chabad calls themselves but I have spoken to enough lubavitchers to know that they are viscously against any form of land withdrawals, tons of them live in Israel and they all totally support Israel and the jews living there. They are heavily involved in the success of the land of Israel. I think you are referring to lubavitch over a hundred years ago when they were opposed to zionism. Ever since the lstate of Israel was created, they have been zionists.
And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 08:08:21 AM ---<snip>
And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.
--- End quote ---
maybe they figured that they couldn't reason with you so they just told you that they consider themselves zionists.. And in your mind they largely are what you consider to be a zionist. They oppose arab terrorism, they want a strong army.. e.t.c. There are intellectual distinctions but these don't click with you, and they probably picked up on that and just gave in - for you.
i've spoken to more than a few chabad rabbis, and they've all said they are not zionists.. (still, like other non zionists, they agree with some aspects, like retaining sovereignty, and not giving away land. So they may ask what is meant by zionism)
it is not a terrible thing that they are not zionists..
The Jewish Tribune, a charedi paper available in britain, is anti-zionist, but they understand the arabs and oppose giving away land, and criticise the israeli government for it, criticising it from the right.
Judeanoncapta is very intelligent and well informed, and sensible and logical, and he would no doubt tell you that chabad do not consider themselves zionists..
Tzvi would tell you i'm sure. And he understands jewish concepts very well.
Pretty much any religious jew in this thread is aware of this
The anti-zionist political party , Shas, are the disaster. They are there to take what they can get.. (ok, maybe alot of groups are), but they sell the country down the river just to get money for their yeshivot.
note- I want to be clear here, that contrary to your suggestion, I have not slept in a chabad house!
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