Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
q_q_:
I won't really criticise rabbi mizrachi over it 'cos I am in galus and not making much effort to leave..
But from a purely academic perspective..
straight after the 3 oaths that charedim take literally and apply today.. It says
in tractate ketuvot 111A, (and that page has been mentioned before)
Rab Judah stated in the name of Samuel: As it is forbidden to leave the Land of Israel for Babylon so it is forbidden to leave Babylon for other countries. Both Rabbah and R. Joseph said: Even from Pumbeditha to Be Kubi.
One scary thing is
"R. Eleazar stated: The dead outside the Land will not be resurrected; for it is said in Scripture, And I will set glory in the land of the living, [implying] the dead of the land in which I have my desire will be resurrected, but the dead [of the land] in which I have no desire will not be resurrected."
I just checked.. apparently both the RAMBAM and the RAMBAN are buried in israel. Maybe the RAMBAM wanted to be buried there for that reason..
DownwithIslam:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 08:16:45 AM ---
--- Quote from: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 08:08:21 AM ---<snip>
And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.
--- End quote ---
maybe they figured that they couldn't reason with you so they just told you that they consider themselves zionists.. And in your mind they largely are what you consider to be a zionist. They oppose arab terrorism, they want a strong army.. e.t.c. There are intellectual distinctions but these don't click with you, and they probably picked up on that and just gave in - for you.
i've spoken to more than a few chabad rabbis, and they've all said they are not zionists.. (still, like other non zionists, they agree with some aspects, like retaining sovereignty, and not giving away land. So they may ask what is meant by zionism)
it is not a terrible thing that they are not zionists..
The Jewish Tribune, a charedi paper available in britain, is anti-zionist, but they understand the arabs and oppose giving away land, and criticise the israeli government for it, criticising it from the right.
Judeanoncapta is very intelligent and well informed, and sensible and logical, and he would no doubt tell you that chabad do not consider themselves zionists..
Tzvi would tell you i'm sure. And he understands jewish concepts very well.
Pretty much any religious jew in this thread is aware of this
The anti-zionist political party , Shas, are the disaster. They are there to take what they can get.. (ok, maybe alot of groups are), but they sell the country down the river just to get money for their yeshivot.
note- I want to be clear here, that contrary to your suggestion, I have not slept in a chabad house!
--- End quote ---
Q_Q, who do you consider to be a zionist? Are their any Rabbis who are Zionist? Is Chaim Ben Pesach a zionist. Chabad holds the same positions as chaim does when it comes to the land of israel so what are you talking about. By your definition, I am not a zionist either. Ok so forgeth the word zionist, I am happy that you at least admitted that chabad is opposed to land surrenders. I will take what I can get at this point from you.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 10:12:28 AM ---Q_Q, who do you consider to be a zionist? Are their any Rabbis who are Zionist? Is Chaim Ben Pesach a zionist. Chabad holds the same positions as chaim does when it comes to the land of israel so what are you talking about. By your definition, I am not a zionist either. Ok so forgeth the word zionist, I am happy that you at least admitted that chabad is opposed to land surrenders. I will take what I can get at this point from you.
--- End quote ---
you are so unintellectual that it's only until now that you ask the question...
and having been on a religious zionist website for years you still don't know.
chaim is a religious zionist , and you are too (even though you don't know precisely what it is)
In a concise sentence, it means you believe we should have a state of israel per se, and an army per se.
Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this? Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you.
Tzvi understands, maybe he has it in him..and he'll get through..
The distinction is quite intellectual.. Even once you understand, I think it wouldn't matter to you at all.. .
Infact, rabbi binyamin kahane wrote that even non zionists should join with the kahanist idea of transferring the arabs.
DownwithIslam:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 10:23:22 AM ---
--- Quote from: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 10:12:28 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 08:16:45 AM ---
--- Quote from: DownwithIslam on December 21, 2008, 08:08:21 AM ---<snip>
And Q_Q , sleeping or eating in a Chabad house doesn't mean anything. I wonder how many chabad people you spoke to. Did they tell you that they weren't zionists? The ones I spoke to all consider themselves zionists.
--- End quote ---
maybe they figured that they couldn't reason with you so they just told you that they consider themselves zionists.. And in your mind they largely are what you consider to be a zionist. They oppose arab terrorism, they want a strong army.. e.t.c. There are intellectual distinctions but these don't click with you, and they probably picked up on that and just gave in - for you.
i've spoken to more than a few chabad rabbis, and they've all said they are not zionists.. (still, like other non zionists, they agree with some aspects, like retaining sovereignty, and not giving away land. So they may ask what is meant by zionism)
it is not a terrible thing that they are not zionists..
The Jewish Tribune, a charedi paper available in britain, is anti-zionist, but they understand the arabs and oppose giving away land, and criticise the israeli government for it, criticising it from the right.
Judeanoncapta is very intelligent and well informed, and sensible and logical, and he would no doubt tell you that chabad do not consider themselves zionists..
Tzvi would tell you i'm sure. And he understands jewish concepts very well.
Pretty much any religious jew in this thread is aware of this
The anti-zionist political party , Shas, are the disaster. They are there to take what they can get.. (ok, maybe alot of groups are), but they sell the country down the river just to get money for their yeshivot.
note- I want to be clear here, that contrary to your suggestion, I have not slept in a chabad house!
--- End quote ---
Q_Q, who do you consider to be a zionist? Are their any Rabbis who are Zionist? Is Chaim Ben Pesach a zionist. Chabad holds the same positions as chaim does when it comes to the land of israel so what are you talking about. By your definition, I am not a zionist either. Ok so forgeth the word zionist, I am happy that you at least admitted that chabad is opposed to land surrenders. I will take what I can get at this point from you.
--- End quote ---
you are so unintellectual that it's only until now that you ask the question...
and having been on a religious zionist website for years you still don't know.
chaim is a religious zionist , and you are too (even though you don't know precisely what it is)
In a concise sentence, it means you believe we should have a state of israel per se, and an army per se.
Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this? Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you.
Tzvi understands, maybe he has it in him..and he'll get through..
The distinction is quite intellectual.. Even once you understand, I think it wouldn't matter to you at all.. .
Infact, rabbi binyamin kahane wrote that even non zionists should join with the kahanist idea of transferring the arabs.
BTW, Religious Anti-Zionism or religious non-zionism, is nothing like Secular anti-zionism.. The latter is anti-semitic.
--- End quote ---
Other than make a personal attack, you have said nothing. I was not asking what a zionist was, I was asking WHAT YOU THOUGH A ZIONIST WAS. Obviously you chose not to answer and that's fine. And for the record both secular anti zionism as well as religious anti zionism are both garbage. All that matters to me is that someone is in favor of a strong jewish state, that he wants the muzzies thrown out and a few other kahanist ideals. Chabad fits that bill quite well. Who you consider a zionist is irrelevant.
DownwithIslam:
Q_Q, it seems that you consider everyone other than yourself and one or two of your buddies to be unintellectual. I remember when you said mord wasn't a deep thinker a few months back. Now you repeatedly talk down to me in this thread. These comments of your are not necessary and dont contribute to a healthy forum.
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