was NK. Now,charedi thinking, Dying Al Kiddush Hashem, vs the chillul hashem.

[q_q_]

The original information I had, said that the london group don't stand with terrorists. So I saw no distinction between them and satmar in relation to israel and the arabs.

Given the new information that the london group stand with pro palestinians - people that want to destroy israel.. So I don't see much of a distinction between branches.  It seems that one just talks less than the other.

They are all pro palestinian too.  I don't think being pro palestinian can be justified.

And it looks like they break shabbat over it too.

They are very small and harmless though.  We do pray for the destruction of heretics. But praying for the destruction of those guys isn't a desperate prayer in the sense that we are not in serious danger from them.

I do like the fact that they are fairly open and honest about their position..

Many jews in the modern orthodox world (british modern orthodox is left of american) have no idea that most right wing religious jews in the diaspora are non or anti-zionist!  In some of the schools that call themselves zionist, it's a secret.  I discovered some years ago that a rabbi in a zionist primary school was an anti-zionist, he just kept quiet.  In a secondary school in the area, they claim to follow the teachings of the modern orthodox dfounder rabbi shimshon rephael hirsch, no rabbis told students that he was an anti-zionist.    I doubt that even the head of the school knew! So, at least NK are relatively honest and open.  

There are jews that have become really religious - black, charedi style. And their parents don't even know that their children are not zionist, their child had kept it secret.  

The reality is like a secret that you find out about through private conversation with somebody..  (A modern orthodox jew might sing shir hamaalot to the israeli national anthem.. not even realising it was that tune. A charedi jew might almost pound through the table in frustration - if it's their table, but they may not say why) It's a crazy situation.  

I think honesty is important, and at least NK have that in aspects that most regular anti-zionists don't, because they don't want to rock the boat, lest it brings down society!

Neturei Karta are harmless because they don't have power to do much harm(and perhapas some of them don't seek power for themselves either). It's not dangerous like the jewish left - Shimon Peres and Co, any israeli PM.

[q_q_]

Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name.

And the way Tzvi described it, Rav Bar Hayim also rejects that (what Tzvi said).   But they redid the machonshilo.org website and his audio shiur about why that concept is mistaken looks like it was taken down from the site.   Hopefully they'll get it back up there because I was meaning to listen to that myself.    The intro to the shiur explained that it is problematic thinking that Jews killed for being Jews are looked at as "sacrifices" or "atonements" which we hear thrown around all the time these days....

next time it's worth noting down the filename.. then if it disappears you could email the webmaster.

here is a (screenshot!) he sent me of all the filenames
http://rapidshare.com/files/176380389/msfiles.zip.html

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name.

And the way Tzvi described it, Rav Bar Hayim also rejects that (what Tzvi said).   But they redid the machonshilo.org website and his audio shiur about why that concept is mistaken looks like it was taken down from the site.   Hopefully they'll get it back up there because I was meaning to listen to that myself.    The intro to the shiur explained that it is problematic thinking that Jews killed for being Jews are looked at as "sacrifices" or "atonements" which we hear thrown around all the time these days....

 Actually if anyone reads what I said (read carefully) I said both views, (and I did hear that shiur by Rav Bar Hayim) and I said that I agree with that view (of Rav Bar Hayim), and in addition to that I said their is another view (more Kabbalistic) that says that Jews that die by goyim also do Kiddush Hashe-m and go straight to the highest Olam Haba (becuase they atone for their community, etc.)
  I said both views and approaches, and i did say that I agee more with the view of Rav Bar Hayim, but their is some truth in the other view (it is true, but it can be problematic when that view affects our actions and not only stays in the intellect).

[q_q_]

Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name.

And the way Tzvi described it, Rav Bar Hayim also rejects that (what Tzvi said).   But they redid the machonshilo.org website and his audio shiur about why that concept is mistaken looks like it was taken down from the site.   Hopefully they'll get it back up there because I was meaning to listen to that myself.    The intro to the shiur explained that it is problematic thinking that Jews killed for being Jews are looked at as "sacrifices" or "atonements" which we hear thrown around all the time these days....

 Actually if anyone reads what I said (read carefully) I said both views, (and I did hear that shiur by Rav Bar Hayim) and I said that I agree with that view (of Rav Bar Hayim), and in addition to that I said their is another view (more Kabbalistic) that says that Jews that die by goyim also do Kiddush Hashem and go straight to the highest Olam Haba (becuase they atone for their community, etc.)
  I said both views and approaches, and i did say that I agee more with the view of Rav Bar Hayim, but their is some truth in the other view (it is true, but it can be problematic when that view affects our actions and not only stays in the intellect).

Your post - the one i read anyway - didn't say why either view might be mistaken..  He isn't asking for both views..

 KahaneBT is wondering what rabbi bar hayyim's reason was why the other view or other views, are mistaken..  If you don't know the reason, then I suspect we don't even know his view correctly either. If judea is about maybe he can chip in!
Kahane

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name.

And the way Tzvi described it, Rav Bar Hayim also rejects that (what Tzvi said).   But they redid the machonshilo.org website and his audio shiur about why that concept is mistaken looks like it was taken down from the site.   Hopefully they'll get it back up there because I was meaning to listen to that myself.    The intro to the shiur explained that it is problematic thinking that Jews killed for being Jews are looked at as "sacrifices" or "atonements" which we hear thrown around all the time these days....

 Actually if anyone reads what I said (read carefully) I said both views, (and I did hear that shiur by Rav Bar Hayim) and I said that I agree with that view (of Rav Bar Hayim), and in addition to that I said their is another view (more Kabbalistic) that says that Jews that die by goyim also do Kiddush Hashem and go straight to the highest Olam Haba (becuase they atone for their community, etc.)
  I said both views and approaches, and i did say that I agee more with the view of Rav Bar Hayim, but their is some truth in the other view (it is true, but it can be problematic when that view affects our actions and not only stays in the intellect).

Your post - the one i read anyway - didn't say why either view might be mistaken..  He isn't asking for both views..

 KahaneBT is wondering what rabbi bar hayyim's reason was why the other view or other views, are mistaken..  If you don't know the reason, then I suspect we don't even know his view correctly either. If judea is about maybe he can chip in!
Kahane

 I already said, becuase it leads to inaction. People just saying they died Al Kiddush Hashe-m and not doing anything about that (for the future).

[q_q_]

Getting back to what Tsvi was saying, I reject the notion that there are times when a Jewish death is a sanctity of G-d's name.

And the way Tzvi described it, Rav Bar Hayim also rejects that (what Tzvi said).   But they redid the machonshilo.org website and his audio shiur about why that concept is mistaken looks like it was taken down from the site.   Hopefully they'll get it back up there because I was meaning to listen to that myself.    The intro to the shiur explained that it is problematic thinking that Jews killed for being Jews are looked at as "sacrifices" or "atonements" which we hear thrown around all the time these days....

 Actually if anyone reads what I said (read carefully) I said both views, (and I did hear that shiur by Rav Bar Hayim) and I said that I agree with that view (of Rav Bar Hayim), and in addition to that I said their is another view (more Kabbalistic) that says that Jews that die by goyim also do Kiddush Hashem and go straight to the highest Olam Haba (becuase they atone for their community, etc.)
  I said both views and approaches, and i did say that I agee more with the view of Rav Bar Hayim, but their is some truth in the other view (it is true, but it can be problematic when that view affects our actions and not only stays in the intellect).

Your post - the one i read anyway - didn't say why either view might be mistaken..  He isn't asking for both views..

 KahaneBT is wondering what rabbi bar hayyim's reason was why the other view or other views, are mistaken..  If you don't know the reason, then I suspect we don't even know his view correctly either. If judea is about maybe he can chip in!
Kahane

 I already said, becuase it leads to inaction. People just saying they died Al Kiddush Hashem and not doing anything about that (for the future).

That wouldn't make the view mistaken.. just means some reasoning from that view is mistaken.

I suppose that people that die sanctifying G-d's name, would live sanctifying it..  And better the latter. It seems obvious, but does it say that anywhere?

There is the concept - to live by the mitzvot and not die by them.. [1]
or, that it's better to live by them than to die by them..
But judging by the reference there, that is making a well known point on a related subject, but not that subject.
So I don't see my reasoning there getting around the inaction problem.


BTW, saying that the view that they died al kiddush hashem leads to inaction
a)that does not mean the view is mistaken
b)it does not resolve the contradiction, that how can jewish weakness(a chillul hashem) be a kiddush hashem.  Ok, it's spiritual strength.. But physical weakness. 


[1]
If a Jew is forced to either transgress any of the mitzvot commanded by the Torah or else be killed, he should transgress rather than be killed. For regarding the mitzvot, it is written, "[You shall keep My chukkim and mishpatim,] which man should do and live by them" -- live by them and not die by them... When does the above apply? In regard to all mitzvot, except for [the prohibitions against] idolatry, [certain] sexual sins, and murder. Regarding these three transgressions, if a person is told to either commit one of them or else be killed, he should be killed rather than transgress. (Mishneh Torah, Laws of the Fundamentals of Torah, 5:1-2).

[zachor_ve_kavod]

One thing that did occur to me, and I am not defending these people, is that at least they are more honest than the Leftist Jews.  Woody Allen and Richard Dreyfus, and David Axelrod, and Michael Lerner are cowards and frauds.  They don't believe that Israel should exist, but they would never admit that.  Instead, they complain about "Israeli agression" and side with the arabs every single chance they get.  The sick, weak, Leftist Jew pretends to be supporters of Israel, but will stab Israel in the back.  I prefer to know who my enemies are.