Author Topic: Israeli rabbis: Thou shalt kill civilians (Read 1583 times)

Americanhero1 · « **on:** December 30, 2008, 11:29:05 AM »

Four leading Israeli rabbis have sanctioned the murder of civilian population in the Gaza Strip amid the Israeli onslaught on the region.
"When a population living near a Jewish town sends bombs at the Jewish town with the purpose of killing and destroying Jewish lives there, it is permitted, according to Jewish Law, to fire shells and bombs at the firing sites, even if they are populated by civilians," read a ruling issued by Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, Rabbi Dov Lior, Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpe and Rabbi Meir Mazuz.

The four added that a warning should be issued prior to any attacks; however, they reiterated that the army's response to rocket or mortar fires may be immediate "even if there is no time for a warning."

The rabbis argued that the army should announce that it would bomb any civilian community from which a rocket is fired to force the local residents into confronting those who fire rockets or mortars at Israeli targets.

Rabbi Mazuz is a member of the Shas Council of Torah Sages.

The ruling seems to give a free hand to Israeli commanders to attack Gaza's civilian population and persuade those troops who have reservations to kill civilians due to humanitarian considerations.

Tel Aviv launched an "all-out war" against the enclave allegedly to put an end to rocket attacks by Palestinian factions on Israel. IAF warplanes and helicopters have so far pounded over 300 targets, including schools and TV stations across the coastal area since Saturday.

Israeli tanks and troops were also deployed along the border with the Gaza Strip.

The attacks have left at least 385 people killed and 1,800 others wounded, Palestinian medical sources told Press TV.

According to UN officials, 57 civilians, including women and children, are among the victims.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, however, has downplayed the high number of civilian deaths saying civilian casualties are a quite normal outcome of war.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=79947&sectionid=351020202

AsheDina · « **Reply #1 on:** December 30, 2008, 11:38:10 AM »

ABSOLUTELY------ SELF DEFENSE.

nessuno · « **Reply #2 on:** December 30, 2008, 11:40:40 AM »

Quote from: AsheDina on December 30, 2008, 11:38:10 AM

ABSOLUTELY------ SELF DEFENSE.

Wow - I was trying to say that in a post but having trouble.
You summed it up in 3 words.

If America would have taken that attitude we would have lost less of our military members.
You can't fight a PC war.

AsheDina · « **Reply #3 on:** December 30, 2008, 11:41:07 AM »

Quote from: AsheDina on December 30, 2008, 11:38:10 AM

ABSOLUTELY------ SELF DEFENSE.

I commented to the RABBIS as well- these are REAL RABBIS.

NOT like the rabbis4OBUTTHEAD.

AsheDina · « **Reply #4 on:** December 30, 2008, 11:42:57 AM »

Quote from: bullcat3 on December 30, 2008, 11:40:40 AM

Quote from: AsheDina on December 30, 2008, 11:38:10 AM
ABSOLUTELY------ SELF DEFENSE.
Wow - I was trying to say that in a post but having trouble.
You summed it up in 3 words.

If America would have taken that attitude we would have lost less of our military members.
You can't fight a PC war.

I know- SAD!!! Tell you Bullcat- if AMERICA REFUSES to do ANYTHING about these situations that were are in- we HAVE to take up for a RIGHTEOUS CAUSE. Chaim tells me that IF things CHANGE In Israel- IT WILL happen in USA- I believe that- 100%. Israel has been a mirror, and USA a reflection- REFLECT USA REFLECT

Tzvi Ben Roshel1 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 30, 2008, 11:50:46 AM »

But notice the headlines "...have sanctioned the murder of civilian population.."

It's not murder, but killing. And you gotta do what you got to do.

q_q_ · « **Reply #6 on:** December 30, 2008, 01:54:13 PM »

Quote from: Americanhero on December 30, 2008, 11:29:05 AM

Four leading Israeli rabbis have sanctioned the murder of civilian population in the Gaza Strip amid the Israeli onslaught on the region. <snip>

you're onto something good here..

There's a joke , 2 jews are sitting on a bench, one is reading an anti-semitic paper.. The other says "why do you read that, it's horrible". He says "what are you talking about.. it's fantastic.. it says the jews control the banks, the jews control all the governments of the world, the jews have loads of money, jews are great in business". Look at your jewish paper, that's horrible news, it says "anti-semitism is rising, jews are leaving , the jewish community is shrinking" e.t.c.

Muck DeFuslims · « **Reply #7 on:** December 30, 2008, 02:49:04 PM »

We shouldn't be surprised by the tone of this article. It comes from an Iranian 'news agency' based in Tehran.

The inflammatory rhetoric designed to make readers believe that Rabbis have real-time direct input into IDF operational procedures/tactical decisions, and that the Rabbis are urging IDF troops to 'murder innocent civilians' isn't surprising considering the source.

In all honesty, the tone of the article isn't that much worse than the garbage put out by AP, the BBC, AFP etc.

One interesting detail is that even the UN is saying of the 385 killed in Gaza only 57 were 'civilians'. Realistically, we can assume even this number is probably inflated.

Considering the fact that the Gaza strip is the most densely populated area on the planet (the koranimals are packed in there like sardines) it is amazing that 'civilian' casualties are so low.

Not that I give a rat's tuchas about koranimal 'civilians'. As far as I'm concerned they're all collectively guilty and deserve collective punishment. In fact, I wish the casualties in Gaza were 10,000 times greater.

But it must be said that the combination of extraordinary intelligence gathering and smart munitions has produced the most accurate bombing campaign in history. This is an amazing achievement, although not one I'm happy with.

muman613 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 30, 2008, 03:17:23 PM »

Yes, I don't think the title reflects accurately what the Rabbis said. The word 'murder' means killing someone for no reason other than you want to destroy a life. What these Rabbis did say is much more intelligent:

"When a population living near a Jewish town sends bombs at the Jewish town with the purpose of killing and destroying Jewish lives there, it is permitted, according to Jewish Law, to fire shells and bombs at the firing sites, even if they are populated by civilians,"

This is not MURDER, it is killing in self-defense. It is because of this that the attack on Shabbat was halachically allowed because in effect the entire operation is one of Pikuie Nefesh {Saving Jewish Lives}. By removing these murderous thugs from Gaza we will save numerous Jewish lives from being murdered.

I just hope this talk of Truce is another deception... There are 1000s of terrorist plotting mayhem in Israel and it would be foolhardy to let the roaches out of their nests.

q_q_ · « **Reply #9 on:** December 30, 2008, 03:24:02 PM »

The article is written to make israel look WORSE towards arabs.. more bloodthirsty.

That's fine!

It's a very good message.

Muck DeFuslims · « **Reply #10 on:** December 30, 2008, 03:38:11 PM »

Well, portraying Rabbis as sanctioning the murder of innocent civilians isn't exactly a good message.

But it is a good message in another sense.

When dealing with koranimals it is far better to be feared than respected.

q_q_ · « **Reply #11 on:** December 30, 2008, 05:12:54 PM »

Quote from: Muck DeFuslims on December 30, 2008, 03:38:11 PM

Well, portraying Rabbis as sanctioning the murder of innocent civilians isn't exactly a good message.

But it is a good message in another sense.

When dealing with koranimals it is far better to be feared than respected.

"civilian population in the Gaza Strip "

not innocent.

Rubystars · « **Reply #12 on:** December 30, 2008, 05:15:37 PM »

I wonder if these Rabbis might be able to help Chaim get into Israel.

AsheDina · « **Reply #13 on:** December 30, 2008, 05:34:51 PM »

Quote from: muman613 on December 30, 2008, 03:17:23 PM

Yes, I don't think the title reflects accurately what the Rabbis said. The word 'murder' means killing someone for no reason other than you want to destroy a life. What these Rabbis did say is much more intelligent:

"When a population living near a Jewish town sends bombs at the Jewish town with the purpose of killing and destroying Jewish lives there, it is permitted, according to Jewish Law, to fire shells and bombs at the firing sites, even if they are populated by civilians,"

This is not MURDER, it is killing in self-defense. It is because of this that the attack on Shabbat was halachically allowed because in effect the entire operation is one of Pikuie Nefesh {Saving Jewish Lives}. By removing these murderous thugs from Gaza we will save numerous Jewish lives from being murdered.

I just hope this talk of Truce is another deception... There are 1000s of terrorist plotting mayhem in Israel and it would be foolhardy to let the roaches out of their nests.

ABSOLUTELY right.

Vito · « **Reply #14 on:** December 30, 2008, 07:49:06 PM »

Quote from: Rubystars on December 30, 2008, 05:15:37 PM

I wonder if these Rabbis might be able to help Chaim get into Israel.

That's a good question, we should look into that..

Rubystars · « **Reply #15 on:** December 30, 2008, 08:57:46 PM »

I'm thinking when he does get into Israel these rabbis could help him once he's there too.

q_q_ · « **Reply #16 on:** December 31, 2008, 06:07:00 AM »

Quote from: Rubystars on December 30, 2008, 08:57:46 PM

I'm thinking when he does get into Israel these rabbis could help him once he's there too.

and he could help them.. He already is helping Rabbi/Rav Dov Lior, he mentioned that kids are coming to the Rav asking him about his videos.
Israeli youth are largely secular, this is a great achievement.

judeanoncapta · « **Reply #17 on:** December 31, 2008, 03:36:32 PM »

Quote from: Rubystars on December 30, 2008, 05:15:37 PM

I wonder if these Rabbis might be able to help Chaim get into Israel.

You're right. The matter should definitely be looked into.

q_q_ · « **Reply #18 on:** December 31, 2008, 03:41:53 PM »

should be go about asking them,

1- by making the case he has.. the injustice and hypocrisy

or should be do it

2- on the basis of how he can build the movement in israel.

I guess '1' actually.. since it worked to get one establishment rabbi to help.. The rabbis that he can help should be aware of that anyway..

maybe '2' will help though.

SavetheWest · « **Reply #19 on:** December 31, 2008, 04:40:50 PM »

These so called "civilians" give aid and comfort to Hamas very willingly. They are not like civilians in South Ossetia or East Timor. In the US if you harbor fugitives, it is considered a crime. Somehow, it's ok that the women help get supplies for Hamas and the children create diversions for the Israeli military. The women and children celebrate in the streets every time Jewish women and children are killed.

Ulli · « **Reply #20 on:** December 31, 2008, 07:12:57 PM »

Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 30, 2008, 11:50:46 AM

But notice the headlines "...have sanctioned the murder of civilian population.."

It's not murder, but killing. And you gotta do what you got to do.

Yes, you are right. I was a little bit shocked about myself, that I overread it totally.

If you read such things daily, it becomes normality, althrough this word choice is twisted and wrong.