My argument for G-d.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

I've heard Chaim argue a number of times for the existence of G-d.  The question he asks, (How can anything be random?) is a very important one.  It's hard to explain away this question, though the atheists certainly try.  They claim to be logical and rational, but I don't see much logic or rationality in their arguments.

I was thinking about this topic last night and the people who argue for or against G-d.  I fully admit that I have a personal stake in this debate, as I am for G-d.  I find those who are not for G-d to be ungrateful, and to me, ingratitude is one of the ugliest human traits. 

This is a key difference between the religious and the non-religious.  A christian theologian by the name of Eckhart von Ockhheim wrote "If the only prayer you said in your whole life was, "Thank You", that would suffice."  It is not sufficient for Jews to only say "thank you", but I understand the meaning of this statement.  It just shows how important it is to be grateful to G-d for giving you the gift of your existence.  G-d didn't have to breath life into you, but He chose to.  Obviously, this is something we should be grateful for.

More to the point, it was this line of thinking that led me last night to construct another (I believe) logical argument for the existence of G-d: 

If you believe that life is a gift, then you have to believe in G-d.  The essential aspect of a gift, is that a gift is something that is given.  There is no such thing as a gift that isn't given.  Therefore, if you believe that your life is a gift, and that gift must have been given to you, it follows that there has to be a G-d who gave you that gift.

You can take this premise further and conclude that atheists are unable or unwilling to view their lives as gifts.

I think that this is a rational line of thinking, but could you please point out to me if you can poke holes into this argument?  This is a new idea I had and I would like to deal with any rebutals now before I introduce this thought in conversation.

[Xoce]

I agree.  This is also what leads people to commit abortions, because they think that life is not a gift, much less a gift from G_d.  It is what lead hussein hobama to "drastically overstate(d) the Kansas tornadoes death toll, saying 10,000 had died." (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8P0K1FG2&show_article=1

The death toll was 12.

When life is not a gift, life does not matter, the Giver of life does not matter and who cares if tens of thousands die?  We are all dust in the wind.

Although these atheist/non/anti-religious types are almost always quite concerned for their own life for purely selfish reasons.

Life is a blessing.

Obomba also said he wouldn't want his daughters "punished" with a baby.  This also reinforces the fact that obomba does NOT think life is a gift, so there is no way he'd believe in a life-giver.

he makes me puke.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

I agree.  This is also what leads people to commit abortions, because they think that life is not a gift, much less a gift from G_d.  It is what lead hussein hobama to "drastically overstate(d) the Kansas tornadoes death toll, saying 10,000 had died." (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8P0K1FG2&show_article=1

The death toll was 12.

When life is not a gift, life does not matter, the Giver of life does not matter and who cares if tens of thousands die?  We are all dust in the wind.

Although these atheist/non/anti-religious types are almost always quite concerned for their own life for purely selfish reasons.

Life is a blessing.

Obomba also said he wouldn't want his daughters "punished" with a baby.  This also reinforces the fact that obomba does NOT think life is a gift, so there is no way he'd believe in a life-giver.

he makes me puke.

That's a good point.  I didn't even think of abortions, but it supports my argument.  The non-religious have abortions, whereas the religious do not.  I always assumed that the reason for this was doctrinal, but as you point out, life is a blessing.  Someone who would choose to have an abortion does not see life as a gift.  Very interesting.

[Xoce]

My friend brought it to my attention really, that despite a pregnancy being unplanned, the life itself is a gift.  That gift (whether by "mistake/accident" or whatever), is a gift, and can be received/treated as such, or given to a family to be adopted.

And I really appreciated your point about gratitude.  Truly we should all thank G-d.

[q_q_]

<snip>
If you believe that life is a gift, then you have to believe in G-d.  The essential aspect of a gift, is that a gift is something that is given.  There is no such thing as a gift that isn't given.  Therefore, if you believe that your life is a gift, and that gift must have been given to you, it follows that there has to be a G-d who gave you that gift.

You can take this premise further and conclude that atheists are unable or unwilling to view their lives as gifts.

I think that this is a rational line of thinking, but could you please point out to me if you can poke holes into this argument?  This is a new idea I had and I would like to deal with any rebutals now before I introduce this thought in conversation.

that is complete nonsensical thinking

a person could say life is a gift, and say it was given by their parents.

Now you'll have to adjust your thoughts to take that answer into account.

dust mites in a corner of your home, if they could think like you, might think of the dust they occupy as a gift. Who gave it to them? Well, to a large extent, you did, by not dusting your belongings in that corner, and opening the window.
That area is their life, their environment. You built it for them.

There is a better argument for G-d.
who made the door?
who made the wood?
who made the trees?
.....
And the person hits a wall because he can't keep answering, and you tell him G-D!!!!!!!

I knew one atheist friend that was a bit clever, and somebody tried that on him, and he said "and who made G-d? WE made G-d".  The problem with my atheist friend's answer.. is that it is just a smart alec remark.. It still doesn't answer the question of who made the trees..

These are crazy games though..

THere was a time when people used to be very philosophical.. the time of the RAMBAM and before, like Aristotle. The RAMBAM actually said he doesn't see any philosophical proof for G-d's existence.. I think he meant outside the Torah.

Of course, we do believe in the truth of the Torah, and from there, we see jewish history.. evidence of G-d.. And the 6 day war, evidence of G-d and divinely wanted zionism - reconquest. And when you consider the bible..
thousands of years of history.. Nobody else has ever produced such a book.. it's remarkable.. it is fair to say that perhaps this book is so qualitatively different, so incredible , it has to be from G-d..

I think the best argument is jewish history in the bible, though people deny that .. you can argue that the tenach being written at the time is a testimony..

But I think the 6  day war is incredible jewish history in our time.. Many christians saw this and became more religious after it..

As rabbi kahane said.. it was a greater miracle than chanukah. Chanukah the war was on and off for years..  And as he said "who wins wars in 6 days".
i.e. this paralleled joshua conquering the land.. 

You could say that returning to israel was a self-fulfilling prophecy. But not the 6 day war.. waged by a secular govt.. You can't plan that. Before and after it we see wars lasting for ages - years. So what's the chance that it would last 6 days!!

[Xoce]

Of course, we do believe in the truth of the Torah, and from there, we see jewish history.. evidence of G-d.. And the 6 day war, evidence of G-d and divinely wanted zionism - reconquest. And when you consider the bible..
thousands of years of history.. Nobody else has ever produced such a book.. it's remarkable.. it is fair to say that perhaps this book is so qualitatively different, so incredible , it has to be from G-d..

 

[zachor_ve_kavod]

<snip>
If you believe that life is a gift, then you have to believe in G-d.  The essential aspect of a gift, is that a gift is something that is given.  There is no such thing as a gift that isn't given.  Therefore, if you believe that your life is a gift, and that gift must have been given to you, it follows that there has to be a G-d who gave you that gift.

You can take this premise further and conclude that atheists are unable or unwilling to view their lives as gifts.

I think that this is a rational line of thinking, but could you please point out to me if you can poke holes into this argument?  This is a new idea I had and I would like to deal with any rebutals now before I introduce this thought in conversation.

that is complete nonsensical thinking

a person could say life is a gift, and say it was given by their parents.

Now you'll have to adjust your thoughts to take that answer into account.

dust mites in a corner of your home, if they could think like you, might think of the dust they occupy as a gift. Who gave it to them? Well, to a large extent, you did, by not dusting your belongings in that corner, and opening the window.
That area is their life, their environment. You built it for them.

There is a better argument for G-d.
who made the door?
who made the wood?
who made the trees?
.....
And the person hits a wall because he can't keep answering, and you tell him G-D!!!!!!!

I knew one atheist friend that was a bit clever, and somebody tried that on him, and he said "and who made G-d? WE made G-d".  The problem with my atheist friend's answer.. is that it is just a smart alec remark.. It still doesn't answer the question of who made the trees..

These are crazy games though..

THere was a time when people used to be very philosophical.. the time of the RAMBAM and before, like Aristotle. The RAMBAM actually said he doesn't see any philosophical proof for G-d's existence.. I think he meant outside the Torah.

Of course, we do believe in the truth of the Torah, and from there, we see jewish history.. evidence of G-d.. And the 6 day war, evidence of G-d and divinely wanted zionism - reconquest. And when you consider the bible..
thousands of years of history.. Nobody else has ever produced such a book.. it's remarkable.. it is fair to say that perhaps this book is so qualitatively different, so incredible , it has to be from G-d..

I think the best argument is jewish history in the bible, though people deny that .. you can argue that the tenach being written at the time is a testimony..

But I think the 6  day war is incredible jewish history in our time.. Many christians saw this and became more religious after it..

As rabbi kahane said.. it was a greater miracle than chanukah. Chanukah the war was on and off for years..  And as he said "who wins wars in 6 days".
i.e. this paralleled joshua conquering the land.. 

You could say that returning to israel was a self-fulfilling prophecy. But not the 6 day war.. waged by a secular govt.. You can't plan that. Before and after it we see wars lasting for ages - years. So what's the chance that it would last 6 days!!

I suppose a person could say the gift of their life was a gift from their parents...if he was not a particularly deep thinker.  Who created all life?  Surely not one's parents.  Who blessed us with free will?  Who blessed us with His will? 

This reminds me of an old joke:

"One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!"

But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"

I can thank my parents for my existence.  But how could anyone argue logically that this gift was solely given by one's parents?  Who gave one's parents or great grandparents the gift of life?  Go back as far as you want to, life originated from a gift.  By the way, how was G-d repaid for this original gift?  With the original sin.  Humanity is an ungrateful lot.

[Zelhar]

It is impossible to prove logically that God exists and impossible to refute it. God's existence may be provable from the existence of a physical universe, but then again one cannot prove that there is one. It could all be a dream within a dream and we wouldn't be able to know so.

Zachor- your proof fails for the same reason- it proves God from yet another unprovable axiom.

Also using something unexplainable as a proof that there is God is not going to work either.

The only thing that can be a proof of God is God revealing himself to man. And Judaism attests that exactly this had happened- that God had revealed himself to thousands of witnesses and that they have been passing their testimony ever since through the Torah and traditions. So of course if one fully accepts this claim then one believes in God.

Anyway Judaism doesn't offer any logical 'proof' of God (by logical proof I mean something like a formal mathematical theorem). I've heard of rabbis who claim they have such a proof but to hear it one must attend a seminar or a lecture because it cannot be explained otherwise, but of course in these lectures they will either use the testimony from Sinai passing on through the generations or they would just bombard the audience with irrelevant informations about wonders and miracles.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

It is impossible to prove logically that G-d exists and impossible to refute it. G-d's existence may be provable from the existence of a physical universe, but then again one cannot prove that there is one. It could all be a dream within a dream and we wouldn't be able to know so.

Zachor- your proof fails for the same reason- it proves G-d from yet another unprovable axiom.

Also using something unexplainable as a proof that there is G-d is not going to work either.

The only thing that can be a proof of G-d is G-d revealing himself to man. And Judaism attests that exactly this had happened- that G-d had revealed himself to thousands of witnesses and that they have been passing their testimony ever since through the Torah and traditions. So of course if one fully accepts this claim then one believes in G-d.

Anyway Judaism doesn't offer any logical 'proof' of G-d (by logical proof I mean something like a formal mathematical theorem). I've heard of rabbis who claim they have such a proof but to hear it one must attend a seminar or a lecture because it cannot be explained otherwise, but of course in these lectures they will either use the testimony from Sinai passing on through the generations or they would just bombard the audience with irrelevant informations about wonders and miracles.

Zelhar,

What you are saying is absolutely true.  No matter what logical arguments (or even historical arguments) can be made to affirm G-d's existence, there can always be an argument made to the contrary.  All we are left with is probability.  One has to ask which is more likely:  that the universe came from nothing, that all life is meaningless, that we are nothing but molecules that have accidently come together to form us; or that the universe was designed, that there is ultimate meaning, and that we are more than just the sum of billions of atoms.  I put it to you that even if G-d's existence cannot be technically proved, it is still far more likely that G-d exists.

My argument about life being a gift and G-d the gift giver does not prove the existence of G-d, I admit that.  But I think it adds to the argument that G-d is more probable than no G-d.  But I want to add one more point about faith.  Faith is belief with the absence of absolute proof.  I don't have faith that you exist--I know you exist.  That we follow Torah as a part of our covenant with G-d is a virtue.  I don't think it would be as virtuous to follow Torah were the existence of G-d proven; then we would not be doing so out of faith.  But the fact that G-d has not revealed himself to us for a long time, and yet we follow Torah, is an indication that we have faith.  I think that makes following Torah more special.

[AsheDina]

   I will answer simply, b/c my faith is simple. Flowers.... they are the manifestation of G-ds love for all mankind on the Earth. I look at waterfalls, and the sound of them- they are applauding G-d that they are made. Rain is a whole audience of G-ds blessing. Thunder is the existence of the covenant and G-ds promise to not flood the Earth again- BUT, they are SO GORGEOUS and every time they show up- it seems that I am in a bad place spiritually- and I REMEMBER that G-d LOVES me. I see a baby, the purity, and I KNOW there is a G-d. 
  I see David Ben Moshe, and I KNOW that man is made in the image of G-d. I see snow, and I am reminded of purity.....then a cardinal bird shows up out of nowhere, and it reminds me that we are flesh and blood. I see the sky, and its ENDLESSNESNESS- and I KNOW that there IS an eternity.

   
 

   G-d is EVER PRESENT and OMNIPOTENT.  I have NO debate folks.

   Here is a Poem I wrote TO G-d:

  Color Wine and Grace

If I spent Eternity, looking for your face...


My Life would be filled, with Color, Wine and Grace.


If I sought, and found, the One I hold Dear, Your Name and Soul, would be so clear.


If I could create, an image of the sky, I would see you standing,seeing eye to eye.


You would see through, my heart, soul, and mind. Your words, would be always, ever gentle, and kind.


You are the melody, you are the song, and in my heart...


You will always belong.

[cjd]

Great post AsheDina! The poem is very good!!

[Zelhar]

It is impossible to prove logically that G-d exists and impossible to refute it. G-d's existence may be provable from the existence of a physical universe, but then again one cannot prove that there is one. It could all be a dream within a dream and we wouldn't be able to know so.

Zachor- your proof fails for the same reason- it proves G-d from yet another unprovable axiom.

Also using something unexplainable as a proof that there is G-d is not going to work either.

The only thing that can be a proof of G-d is G-d revealing himself to man. And Judaism attests that exactly this had happened- that G-d had revealed himself to thousands of witnesses and that they have been passing their testimony ever since through the Torah and traditions. So of course if one fully accepts this claim then one believes in G-d.

Anyway Judaism doesn't offer any logical 'proof' of G-d (by logical proof I mean something like a formal mathematical theorem). I've heard of rabbis who claim they have such a proof but to hear it one must attend a seminar or a lecture because it cannot be explained otherwise, but of course in these lectures they will either use the testimony from Sinai passing on through the generations or they would just bombard the audience with irrelevant informations about wonders and miracles.

Zelhar,

What you are saying is absolutely true.  No matter what logical arguments (or even historical arguments) can be made to affirm G-d's existence, there can always be an argument made to the contrary.  All we are left with is probability.  One has to ask which is more likely:  that the universe came from nothing, that all life is meaningless, that we are nothing but molecules that have accidently come together to form us; or that the universe was designed, that there is ultimate meaning, and that we are more than just the sum of billions of atoms.  I put it to you that even if G-d's existence cannot be technically proved, it is still far more likely that G-d exists.

My argument about life being a gift and G-d the gift giver does not prove the existence of G-d, I admit that.  But I think it adds to the argument that G-d is more probable than no G-d.  But I want to add one more point about faith.  Faith is belief with the absence of absolute proof.  I don't have faith that you exist--I know you exist.  That we follow Torah as a part of our covenant with G-d is a virtue.  I don't think it would be as virtuous to follow Torah were the existence of G-d proven; then we would not be doing so out of faith.  But the fact that G-d has not revealed himself to us for a long time, and yet we follow Torah, is an indication that we have faith.  I think that makes following Torah more special.

There is a catch though- there is a commandment to know God, quite possibly, it is the hardest commandment to observe.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

It is impossible to prove logically that G-d exists and impossible to refute it. G-d's existence may be provable from the existence of a physical universe, but then again one cannot prove that there is one. It could all be a dream within a dream and we wouldn't be able to know so.

Zachor- your proof fails for the same reason- it proves G-d from yet another unprovable axiom.

Also using something unexplainable as a proof that there is G-d is not going to work either.

The only thing that can be a proof of G-d is G-d revealing himself to man. And Judaism attests that exactly this had happened- that G-d had revealed himself to thousands of witnesses and that they have been passing their testimony ever since through the Torah and traditions. So of course if one fully accepts this claim then one believes in G-d.

Anyway Judaism doesn't offer any logical 'proof' of G-d (by logical proof I mean something like a formal mathematical theorem). I've heard of rabbis who claim they have such a proof but to hear it one must attend a seminar or a lecture because it cannot be explained otherwise, but of course in these lectures they will either use the testimony from Sinai passing on through the generations or they would just bombard the audience with irrelevant informations about wonders and miracles.

Zelhar,

What you are saying is absolutely true.  No matter what logical arguments (or even historical arguments) can be made to affirm G-d's existence, there can always be an argument made to the contrary.  All we are left with is probability.  One has to ask which is more likely:  that the universe came from nothing, that all life is meaningless, that we are nothing but molecules that have accidently come together to form us; or that the universe was designed, that there is ultimate meaning, and that we are more than just the sum of billions of atoms.  I put it to you that even if G-d's existence cannot be technically proved, it is still far more likely that G-d exists.

My argument about life being a gift and G-d the gift giver does not prove the existence of G-d, I admit that.  But I think it adds to the argument that G-d is more probable than no G-d.  But I want to add one more point about faith.  Faith is belief with the absence of absolute proof.  I don't have faith that you exist--I know you exist.  That we follow Torah as a part of our covenant with G-d is a virtue.  I don't think it would be as virtuous to follow Torah were the existence of G-d proven; then we would not be doing so out of faith.  But the fact that G-d has not revealed himself to us for a long time, and yet we follow Torah, is an indication that we have faith.  I think that makes following Torah more special.

There is a catch though- there is a commandment to know G-d, quite possibly, it is the hardest commandment to observe.

There is a commandment to know that G-d exists (Exodus 20:2 and Deuteronomy 5:6), but that is not the same as saying that one has to know G-d.  Where does it say that one must know G-d?

At the risk of starting a Theological dispute, I have to make the observation that it is presicely because G-d cannot be understood fully by the human mind that so many different religions exist, each with their own perception of G-d.  That G-d cannot be completely understood has also led to philosophers with (in my opinion) outlandish perceptions of G-d.  Spinoza is the prime example of this.  He argued that G-d was nothing more than nature, (a profoundly flawed perception in my opinion).

We are three dimensional creatures living in a universe with dozens of dimensions.  We cannot conceptualize the universe even; scientists and mathematicians have to resort to mathematical formulas to understand the universe, but it cannot actually be mentally conceived.  So if we cannot mentally grasp the universe, it follows that it is even more impossible to mentally understand He who created that universe.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

By the way, your poem is beautiful Ashe Dina.  I'm going to keep it so I can read it now and then.

[q_q_]

   I will answer simply, b/c my faith is simple. Flowers.... they are the manifestation of G-ds love for all mankind on the Earth. I look at waterfalls, and the sound of them- they are applauding G-d that they are made. Rain is a whole audience of G-ds blessing. Thunder is the existence of the covenant and G-ds promise to not flood the Earth again- BUT, they are SO GORGEOUS and every time they show up- it seems that I am in a bad place spiritually- and I REMEMBER that G-d LOVES me. I see a baby, the purity, and I KNOW there is a G-d. 
  I see David Ben Moshe, and I KNOW that man is made in the image of G-d. I see snow, and I am reminded of purity.....then a cardinal bird shows up out of nowhere, and it reminds me that we are flesh and blood. I see the sky, and its ENDLESSNESNESS- and I KNOW that there IS an eternity.<snip>

Absolutely amazing post.. (this was even before the great poem!)

[Rubystars]

There is no objective evidence for God.

None whatsoever.

You have to take it on faith and experience.

I know that's not a nice answer, but it's the right answer.

I liked AsheDina's post. I feel closer to God when I look at beautiful things in nature too. Nature itself is mostly savage though, based on a struggle among living things to survive. Painful deaths occur in nature like an antelope baby getting ripped apart by hyenas. This is natural too. Horrible deformities like babies born with more than one face on one head are also natural. This world is a cruel and vicious place sometimes, actually most of the time. We do have times of relief and joy though.

We have to have faith despite the fact this is a cruel world.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

There is no objective evidence for G-d.

None whatsoever.

You have to take it on faith and experience.

I know that's not a nice answer, but it's the right answer.

I liked AsheDina's post. I feel closer to G-d when I look at beautiful things in nature too. Nature itself is mostly savage though, based on a struggle among living things to survive. Painful deaths occur in nature like an antelope baby getting ripped apart by hyenas. This is natural too. Horrible deformities like babies born with more than one face on one head are also natural. This world is a cruel and vicious place sometimes, actually most of the time. We do have times of relief and joy though.

We have to have faith despite the fact this is a cruel world.

I agree with you, but I would add that what is so cruel about nature is its unbearable randomness.

[q_q_]

There is no objective evidence for G-d.

None whatsoever.

You have to take it on faith and experience.

I know that's not a nice answer, but it's the right answer.

I liked AsheDina's post. I feel closer to G-d when I look at beautiful things in nature too. Nature itself is mostly savage though, based on a struggle among living things to survive. Painful deaths occur in nature like an antelope baby getting ripped apart by hyenas. This is natural too. Horrible deformities like babies born with more than one face on one head are also natural. This world is a cruel and vicious place sometimes, actually most of the time. We do have times of relief and joy though.

We have to have faith despite the fact this is a cruel world.

I agree with you, but I would add that what is so cruel about nature is its unbearable randomness.

except for those parts of nature that are clearly not random, not subject to the laws of nature

Jewish History.  I do with it was studied more objectively though..
Rabbi Kahane asked "who wins wars in 6 days?" 
I would like to know if others have!  though that one of course paralleled joshua.. so it's even more spectacular..

[zachor_ve_kavod]

There is no objective evidence for G-d.

None whatsoever.

You have to take it on faith and experience.

I know that's not a nice answer, but it's the right answer.

I liked AsheDina's post. I feel closer to G-d when I look at beautiful things in nature too. Nature itself is mostly savage though, based on a struggle among living things to survive. Painful deaths occur in nature like an antelope baby getting ripped apart by hyenas. This is natural too. Horrible deformities like babies born with more than one face on one head are also natural. This world is a cruel and vicious place sometimes, actually most of the time. We do have times of relief and joy though.

We have to have faith despite the fact this is a cruel world.

I agree with you, but I would add that what is so cruel about nature is its unbearable randomness.

except for those parts of nature that are clearly not random, not subject to the laws of nature

Jewish History.  I do with it was studied more objectively though..
Rabbi Kahane asked "who wins wars in 6 days?" 
I would like to know if others have!  though that one of course paralleled joshua.. so it's even more spectacular..

Yes, the six day war is certainly a good indicator that there is a G-d.  I can't think of a better example in modern history of such a miraculous event.  By the way, the atheists are always complaining that G-d doesn't reveal himself.  I suggest that any way that G-d chose to reveal Himself would still me met with skepticism.  The six day war is a good example of this.  But I also think that you can see the essence of the Divine all around us, just as AsheDina suggested.  Look at a flock of birds sometime--not a little flock, but a huge flock of birds.  See how they change shape in the air to form woundrous permutations.  They fly so close to one another and yet their wings never touch each other.  Listen to one of Bach's fugues.  This is probably the best example I can think of.  Bach would not have existed were it not for G-d.  Even Bach's secular works were written in devotion to G-d.  Contrast that with the music of the secular world, which totally stinks.  To me this is solid evidence.

[AsheDina]

  Thank you all for the compliments, I write LOTS of poems for G-d. I LOVE G-d FIERCELY.

  True, I am not religious, that is correct, however, my roots in Judaism and LOVE for HaShem speaks for itself. 

  MY G-d is my shield, my protector, my defender- the CREATOR of the UNIVERSE- he is MAGNIFICENT, full of MAJESTY and SPLENDOR- If I was not a weak mere dust being, I would PRAISE G-D Every second I have. 

Let his praise fill the houses of worship, and peace fill the hearts, His Joy and GLORY, he did WONDEROUSLY impart on us. 
He is the MIGHTY G-d who told Job "The waves STOP here"  so that YOU know that no matter what happens in YOUR lives, that seems overbearing- HaShem WILL come when you CALL his name, and the PROUD waves of depression, oppression MUST STOP!
I EXTOL the  name of HIM who RIDES the HEAVENS, he is our G-d.

   
                                             

[Zelhar]

It is impossible to prove logically that G-d exists and impossible to refute it. G-d's existence may be provable from the existence of a physical universe, but then again one cannot prove that there is one. It could all be a dream within a dream and we wouldn't be able to know so.

Zachor- your proof fails for the same reason- it proves G-d from yet another unprovable axiom.

Also using something unexplainable as a proof that there is G-d is not going to work either.

The only thing that can be a proof of G-d is G-d revealing himself to man. And Judaism attests that exactly this had happened- that G-d had revealed himself to thousands of witnesses and that they have been passing their testimony ever since through the Torah and traditions. So of course if one fully accepts this claim then one believes in G-d.

Anyway Judaism doesn't offer any logical 'proof' of G-d (by logical proof I mean something like a formal mathematical theorem). I've heard of rabbis who claim they have such a proof but to hear it one must attend a seminar or a lecture because it cannot be explained otherwise, but of course in these lectures they will either use the testimony from Sinai passing on through the generations or they would just bombard the audience with irrelevant informations about wonders and miracles.

Zelhar,

What you are saying is absolutely true.  No matter what logical arguments (or even historical arguments) can be made to affirm G-d's existence, there can always be an argument made to the contrary.  All we are left with is probability.  One has to ask which is more likely:  that the universe came from nothing, that all life is meaningless, that we are nothing but molecules that have accidently come together to form us; or that the universe was designed, that there is ultimate meaning, and that we are more than just the sum of billions of atoms.  I put it to you that even if G-d's existence cannot be technically proved, it is still far more likely that G-d exists.

My argument about life being a gift and G-d the gift giver does not prove the existence of G-d, I admit that.  But I think it adds to the argument that G-d is more probable than no G-d.  But I want to add one more point about faith.  Faith is belief with the absence of absolute proof.  I don't have faith that you exist--I know you exist.  That we follow Torah as a part of our covenant with G-d is a virtue.  I don't think it would be as virtuous to follow Torah were the existence of G-d proven; then we would not be doing so out of faith.  But the fact that G-d has not revealed himself to us for a long time, and yet we follow Torah, is an indication that we have faith.  I think that makes following Torah more special.

There is a catch though- there is a commandment to know G-d, quite possibly, it is the hardest commandment to observe.

There is a commandment to know that G-d exists (Exodus 20:2 and Deuteronomy 5:6), but that is not the same as saying that one has to know G-d.  Where does it say that one must know G-d?

At the risk of starting a Theological dispute, I have to make the observation that it is presicely because G-d cannot be understood fully by the human mind that so many different religions exist, each with their own perception of G-d.  That G-d cannot be completely understood has also led to philosophers with (in my opinion) outlandish perceptions of G-d.  Spinoza is the prime example of this.  He argued that G-d was nothing more than nature, (a profoundly flawed perception in my opinion).

We are three dimensional creatures living in a universe with dozens of dimensions.  We cannot conceptualize the universe even; scientists and mathematicians have to resort to mathematical formulas to understand the universe, but it cannot actually be mentally conceived.  So if we cannot mentally grasp the universe, it follows that it is even more impossible to mentally understand He who created that universe.

There are In several occasions in the bible where G-d had said: "so that you know that I am <the name>". For example, Exodus 6,7:

""ולקחתי אתכם לי לעם והייתי לכם לאלהים וידעתם כי אני ידוד אלהיכם המוציא אתכם מתחת סבלות מצרים""
 and I will take you to Me for a people, and I will be to you a G-d; and ye shall know that I am the LORD your G-d, who brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

And I of course you are right about the inability to mentally conceive God. I think humans are limited to the universe and they cannot conceive something that is unbounded to the universe.

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

i believe in Pantheistic idea of God.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Does G-d exist ?

I don't know. I'd like to believe. I'd like to know or at least have complete faith.

I look at the vastness of the universe. I look at the complexity of life. I look at the beauty and wonders of nature. And I say, "There must be a G-d !".

I think to myself, 'How can all that there is, have arisen from nothing ? How could cosmos have arisen from chaos ?' And I think "There must be a G-d !".

Yet I don't know.

No, I don't have complete faith. I'd be lying if I said I did.

For me, there is still doubt.

Yes, the 6 day war was amazing, bordering on miraculous. But to me, not a miracle in the classical sense.

The sun didn't stand still. The laws of nature weren't contravened or altered.

A fulfillment of Biblical prophesy ? Maybe. I just don't know.

My doubts remain.

What kind of merciful and loving G-d allowed the holocaust to occur ? Where was the needed miracle then ? Why the millenia of endless Jewish suffering ?

Why must righteous people endure such pain ? Why does a compassionate, merciful and loving G-d allow so much suffering and tragedy to befall good people ?

Yes, I've heard the free will argument. The reward comes later argument.

I'm not convinced.

Maybe if I witnessed an undeniable miracle, I'd be convinced. Even then I might think I imagined it. Perhaps I would dismiss a miracle witnessed by multitudes as mass hysteria.

Maybe I'm just meant to be an agnostic.

[q_q_]

Does G-d exist ?

I don't know. I'd like to believe. I'd like to know or at least have complete faith.

I look at the vastness of the universe. I look at the complexity of life. I look at the beauty and wonders of nature. And I say, "There must be a G-d !".

I think to myself, 'How can all that there is, have arisen from nothing ? How could cosmos have arisen from chaos ?' And I think "There must be a G-d !".

Yet I don't know.

No, I don't have complete faith. I'd be lying if I said I did.

For me, there is still doubt.

Yes, the 6 day war was amazing, bordering on miraculous. But to me, not a miracle in the classical sense.

The sun didn't stand still. The laws of nature weren't contravened or altered.

A fulfillment of Biblical prophesy ? Maybe. I just don't know.

My doubts remain.

What kind of merciful and loving G-d allowed the holocaust to occur ? Where was the needed miracle then ? Why the millenia of endless Jewish suffering ?

Why must righteous people endure such pain ? Why does a compassionate, merciful and loving G-d allow so much suffering and tragedy to befall good people ?

Yes, I've heard the free will argument. The reward comes later argument.

I'm not convinced.

Maybe if I witnessed an undeniable miracle, I'd be convinced. Even then I might think I imagined it. Perhaps I would dismiss a miracle witnessed by multitudes as mass hysteria.

Maybe I'm just meant to be an agnostic.

I know a non zionist that was moved to believe in G-d by the holocaust!!

The holocaust was not normal.

Infact, rabbi kahane said it was a punishment.. Many orthodox rabbis would say it was a punishment.. strict non-zionists would say it was.  People just differ over what it was a punishment for. 

If you think about it , it is unbelievable that Hitler had the success that he did..

I can't recall what parasha he thought foretold it.. But I know there's the prophesy of jews being led like sheep to the slaughter.  See, jews tend not to get so excited about prophecy!!!